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Can I claim redundancy when Umbrella enters liquidation? Other ways to recoup losses?

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    #11
    Originally posted by northernladuk View Post
    4 - definitely not. This is a new entity and has no bearing on what business you have with your old/ex employer.
    Just a note though. Make sure your accountant factors in the tax you've already paid and what income you may get from this service when working out the most efficient salary /divis model for you. It's likely it won't be worth paying a salary from the LTD at first as you may well already be over the tax threshold.
    Thanks. I'm definitely over the threshold year to date and hadn't realised that was an option to pay no salary at all and just do dividends; haven't got that far as I don't have a P45. Didn't sound hopeful for getting one either when I talked to the Insolvency Practitioner...

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      #12
      Originally posted by bobof View Post
      Thanks. I'm definitely over the threshold year to date and hadn't realised that was an option to pay no salary at all and just do dividends; haven't got that far as I don't have a P45. Didn't sound hopeful for getting one either when I talked to the Insolvency Practitioner...
      You will be a director of your LTD so National Mimium Wage doesn't apply to you so you can pay yourself what you want. With RTI here you can pay it when you want as well but only after you've earned it.

      Back to Brolly and redundancy. The only quote I can find is one paragraph in the link below. All the other insolvency umbrella links I could find were about Sunday Solutions but that's a different kettle of fish.

      Your friendly rubber necker.
      Last edited by Contractor UK; 25 May 2019, 12:13.
      'CUK forum personality of 2011 - Winner - Yes really!!!!

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        #13
        Originally posted by northernladuk View Post
        You will be a director of your LTD so National Mimium Wage doesn't apply to you so you can pay yourself what you want. With RTI here you can pay it when you want as well but only after you've earned it.

        Back to Brolly and redundancy. The only quote I can find is one paragraph in the link below. All the other insolvency umbrella links I could find were about Sunday Solutions but that's a different kettle of fish.

        Your friendly rubber necker.
        Thanks; it does seem like this could indeed be the one scenario where a genuine claim of redundancy could be made; the brolly is about to become insolvent with me still under it and still owed wages. In fact this scenario below sounds familiar; I know the end client have become slower at paying invoices recently (terms were supposed to be 7 days and have been running at over a month), and to their credit a few times Crystal had made silently made payroll payments including the "bonus" due (ie not just the minimum wage portion) against invoices that the end client haven't actually paid - I guess they've been doing this to keep up their end of the employment contract.

        "When can contractors claim?
        The only potential scenario when a contractor is likely to be able to make a claim on conventional payment protection policies would be in the event of their umbrella company going bust which can be a possibility during an economic downturn.

        The reality is that some agencies go bust every week and end-user clients extend payment terms by months. This means small umbrella companies with few clients and a higher cost base are more at risk."

        There is a note further on about whether a contractor would want to shake the apple cart with respect to expenses claimed; by my understanding the taxman can only go back 6 years for expenses, so this wouldn't impact me.
        Last edited by Contractor UK; 25 May 2019, 12:14.

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          #14
          If they move you by TUPE, there is probably no case for redundancy, if you refuse TUPE then your rights are very limited. So I guess it all falls under how they do this...
          The other thing is - if there is any chance of redundancy then have you had continuos employment, so have you been kept on their books whilst you are not on assignment, or have they issued you a P45 and then you have returned? If it is the latter again there would be no substantial time for the redundancy to build up. If they kept you on the books, then you would have been open to Pay Between Assignments which they probably didn't pay - so you could then go after the liquidators for that I am guessing?

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            #15
            Originally posted by lucycontractorumbrella View Post
            If they move you by TUPE, there is probably no case for redundancy, if you refuse TUPE then your rights are very limited. So I guess it all falls under how they do this...
            The other thing is - if there is any chance of redundancy then have you had continuos employment, so have you been kept on their books whilst you are not on assignment, or have they issued you a P45 and then you have returned? If it is the latter again there would be no substantial time for the redundancy to build up. If they kept you on the books, then you would have been open to Pay Between Assignments which they probably didn't pay - so you could then go after the liquidators for that I am guessing?
            There's not been any mention of being moved by TUPE - I don't think Pendragon would want the liability that brings with it... They've been asking folk to get in touch with Pendragon and sign a new Pendragon contract, which as far as I understand is distinctly not TUPE.

            I have been on a continuous assignment for a ...long... time. No P45 ever issued.

            It looks like everyone's PAYE references changed silently without us knowing about it in August this year when HMRC show us being paid by Unitum Operations instead of Aqua Bubble. This looks a bit suspect, almost like a TUPE job by stealth... But I guess with TUPE your redundancy rights go back to day 1 of the original employment?

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              #16
              Originally posted by bobof View Post
              This looks a bit suspect, almost like a TUPE job by stealth... But I guess with TUPE your redundancy rights go back to day 1 of the original employment?
              If TUPE'd you get continuous employment, if they are not doing that they would have to officially terminate your employment with the appropriate notice, they cannot simply move you to a different employer - this could be a whole can of worms opened!

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                #17
                Originally posted by lucycontractorumbrella View Post
                If TUPE'd you get continuous employment, if they are not doing that they would have to officially terminate your employment with the appropriate notice, they cannot simply move you to a different employer - this could be a whole can of worms opened!
                Well, a letter has arrived via email today from the insolvency practitioners suggesting I should claim for redundancy from the Insolvency Service along with a reference number; so it does look like this is the route it is going. The mind boggles really. The Insolvency Practitioner have appointed someone else to deal with the employee's pay issues.

                As it is I stand to have a significant excess in a redundancy on what is owed to me by Crystal if the redundancy goes through. It's not "right" though...!

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                  #18
                  They may be interested to see those requests for you to sign up with another employer! It also sucks as any short term contractors who were employed will probably be left without any case for statutory redundancy

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                    #19
                    Originally posted by lucycontractorumbrella View Post
                    They may be interested to see those requests for you to sign up with another employer! It also sucks as any short term contractors who were employed will probably be left without any case for statutory redundancy
                    From what angle out of interest? Do you think they constituted an offer of an alternative position? Or from the point of view of their liabilities in this whole mess?

                    I had a word this afternoon with the company who are appointed by Opus to look after the employees and made it very clear that I didn't want any part of anything even remotely questionable; the lady was very clear that as an employee with uninterrupted service there shouldn't be any question of entitlement to redundancy and there probably isn't any other route to reasonable recovery of moneys owed (I'm out a week's wages at the moment) as "there isn't any money"!.

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                      #20
                      Originally posted by bobof View Post
                      From what angle out of interest? Do you think they constituted an offer of an alternative position? Or from the point of view of their liabilities in this whole mess?

                      I had a word this afternoon with the company who are appointed by Opus to look after the employees and made it very clear that I didn't want any part of anything even remotely questionable; the lady was very clear that as an employee with uninterrupted service there shouldn't be any question of entitlement to redundancy and there probably isn't any other route to reasonable recovery of moneys owed (I'm out a week's wages at the moment) as "there isn't any money"!.
                      If there are any director links between the two companies it would potential highlight a Phoenixing of the business and I have a feeling this falls under TAAR which if this is the case will not please HMRC...

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