Anyone have experience of the 4 UCs Lorien will deal with? Anyone have experience of the 4 UCs Lorien will deal with?
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  1. #1

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    Default Anyone have experience of the 4 UCs Lorien will deal with?

    Lorien offer a choice of:

    Giant
    NASA
    Orange Genie
    Paystream

    I've read through lots of threads/posts here and still can't get my head around some of the issues. What I'd be looking to do:

    1. Contribute to an existing (Hargreaves Lansdown) SIPP via salary sacrifice (the full £40k in the rest of this tax year).
    2. Use the carry-forward for the last 3 years (looking to fund the "oldest" year, as far as possible, before the end of this tax year).
    3. Keep my Ltd Co running (may be done separately, perhaps as a dormant co, but that may be a separate issue)

    I read in other threads that not all UCs deal with Salary Sac well, in particular there can be issues with varying payments.

    One poster suggested that you shouldn't (be able to) vary payments for 12 months - unless there are exceptional changes in circumstances - or HMRC may see the arrangement as "not a proper Salary Sac".

    But then... how do you catch up with carry-forward unless you can vary payments? I mean, once we've filled up the £40k for previous years, don't we then need to change the payment amount - especially if we've also filled up "this year" as well - otherwise we'd be over-funding the pension? It all seems a bit unclear.

    I'd be grateful if anyone can shed some light, maybe share some experiences/knowledge of these 4 companies (and of Lorien).

    Thanks in advance.

  2. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspidistra View Post
    Lorien offer a choice of:

    Giant
    NASA
    Orange Genie
    Paystream

    I've read through lots of threads/posts here and still can't get my head around some of the issues. What I'd be looking to do:

    1. Contribute to an existing (Hargreaves Lansdown) SIPP via salary sacrifice (the full £40k in the rest of this tax year).
    2. Use the carry-forward for the last 3 years (looking to fund the "oldest" year, as far as possible, before the end of this tax year).
    3. Keep my Ltd Co running (may be done separately, perhaps as a dormant co, but that may be a separate issue)

    I read in other threads that not all UCs deal with Salary Sac well, in particular there can be issues with varying payments.

    One poster suggested that you shouldn't (be able to) vary payments for 12 months - unless there are exceptional changes in circumstances - or HMRC may see the arrangement as "not a proper Salary Sac".

    But then... how do you catch up with carry-forward unless you can vary payments? I mean, once we've filled up the £40k for previous years, don't we then need to change the payment amount - especially if we've also filled up "this year" as well - otherwise we'd be over-funding the pension? It all seems a bit unclear.

    I'd be grateful if anyone can shed some light, maybe share some experiences/knowledge of these 4 companies (and of Lorien).

    Thanks in advance.


    There are too many questions there but a few quick answers / correction

    1) you use this years pension allowance first and then previous years (starting with the oldest one second).
    2) of course you need the sipp to already be running.
    3) That poster regarding circumstances isn't 100% right but nor is he wrong. Your pension contributions should really only change if your circumstances change (so renewals / divorce / new baby). Basically you need a reason other than this month my expenses will be more.
    4) I don't know of anyone who will do salary sacrifice into a HL pension - but would be curious to what the umbrella companies say.
    merely at clientco for the entertainment

  3. #3

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    Have you asked each of the 4 UC's your first question?

    The other 2 questions are your concern, not not theirs, but its correctly been pointed out that you have to use "this years" pension allowance first, then working back through the previous years when you had a pension.

    I do know that NASA does allow salary sacrifice into an existing pension, and do not restrict the payment each month to £3333K per month (£40K for the year). I don't know if they allow this to be paid into a HL SIPP.

    You'll get a few answers here but what does that really tell you? You'd be better off firing an email off to each, giving your day rate, tax code and intended pension contribution, and ask for an illustrative payslip.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paralytic View Post
    Have you asked each of the 4 UC's your first question?

    The other 2 questions are your concern, not not theirs, but its correctly been pointed out that you have to use "this years" pension allowance first, then working back through the previous years when you had a pension.

    I do know that NASA does allow salary sacrifice into an existing pension, and do not restrict the payment each month to £3333K per month (£40K for the year). I don't know if they allow this to be paid into a HL SIPP.

    You'll get a few answers here but what does that really tell you? You'd be better off firing an email off to each, giving your day rate, tax code and intended pension contribution, and ask for an illustrative payslip.
    It should actually be a Key Information Document as that is what should be being used from April 2020 onwards.
    merely at clientco for the entertainment

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspidistra View Post

    One poster suggested that you shouldn't (be able to) vary payments for 12 months - unless there are exceptional changes in circumstances - or HMRC may see the arrangement as "not a proper Salary Sac".
    There was a discussion about how Paystream handle Pension contributions a couple of weeks ago where you probably read that comment. I'm with Paystream and they allow me to change pension contributions at New Tax Year or Contract Change/Renewal. I took advantage of that a couple of months ago when I got an extension.
    Last edited by Acme Thunderer; 22nd October 2020 at 16:04. Reason: Trimmed quote down

  6. #6

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    I should perhaps have been clearer in my first post - I do realise that carry-forward can only happen once "this year" has been funded and the HL SIPP is already running...

    The issue with changing contribution levels is the key question - it's hard to explain, but basically...

    It seems to me that someone playing catch-up will be contributing a lot to the pension while they are doing that, and then... once they're fully caught up, they need to avoid over-funding which must mean reducing the contribution level.

    And presumably that change would need to happen whenever any further contributions would over-fund (take it beyond allowed limits).

    The other key question is just to understand if anyone has had problems with any of the 4 mentioned. In other threads there have been some veiled comments suggesting that they're... not all exactly wonderful, but nothing specific was said - maybe people are reluctant to slag off a company in public? Feel free to send a PM if so, it would be treated in confidence of course.

  7. #7

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    I only have had one experience with Lorien. 10 years ago.
    I walked off site after they had built up a 30k debt.
    They settled after I got debt collectors involved.
    Other contractors were not so lucky and they never paid some apparently.
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  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by courtg9000 View Post
    I only have had one experience with Lorien. 10 years ago.
    I walked off site after they had built up a 30k debt.
    They settled after I got debt collectors involved.
    Other contractors were not so lucky and they never paid some apparently.
    Blimey. I'll have to keep an eye out for any backsliding.

    It's difficult to imagine why they would do that - I mean, they've been around for many years before and since, so it's not as if they were insolvent?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspidistra View Post
    Blimey. I'll have to keep an eye out for any backsliding.

    It's difficult to imagine why they would do that - I mean, they've been around for many years before and since, so it's not as if they were insolvent?
    Agencies will often only pay when the client pays them.

    One reason for ensuring you don't opt out of the agency regulations is because that allows agencies to add clauses like we won't pay you until we've received the money from the end client (sorry but that is your problem, you as an agency should have checked they had the money to pay the bills).
    merely at clientco for the entertainment

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by eek View Post
    Agencies will often only pay when the client pays them.

    One reason for ensuring you don't opt out of the agency regulations is because that allows agencies to add clauses like we won't pay you until we've received the money from the end client (sorry but that is your problem, you as an agency should have checked they had the money to pay the bills).
    Not during my time owning the shareholding in the agency. A few years before that.
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