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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by lucyclarityumbrella View Post
    Anyone do some SEO for our site then? Obviously missing a trick
    You might want to dig a little deeper into EU's owners' history through LinkedIn... Could be that their FCSA position is based on who they were rather than who they are.

    Either way, FCSA are turning into a joke that[s potentially costing a lot of people a lot of money.
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  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by malvolio View Post
    Either way, FCSA are turning into a joke that[s potentially costing a lot of people a lot of money.
    Serious question: who might it cost a lot of money?

    Yes, their almost closed-door policy for new applicants is verging on an anti-competitive use of their market position, leveraging the laziness of agencies, but the competition for customers within the members is there and is therefore keeping costs at a fairly stable level, relative to those outside of FCSA.

    If all FCSA members started gradually increasing their prices, then I could then see a claim of some sort of price fixing going on.

    I'm seeing some reference to some Umbrellas charging apprenticeship levy when they should not be - if that is the case, those Umbrellas should be named so that individuals can ensure it doesn't happen to them. But, there is also an onus on individual contractors to ensure they are aware of what they are being charged.

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paralytic View Post
    Serious question: who might it cost a lot of money?

    Yes, their almost closed-door policy for new applicants is verging on an anti-competitive use of their market position, leveraging the laziness of agencies, but the competition for customers within the members is there and is therefore keeping costs at a fairly stable level, relative to those outside of FCSA.

    If all FCSA members started gradually increasing their prices, then I could then see a claim of some sort of price fixing going on.

    I'm seeing some reference to some Umbrellas charging apprenticeship levy when they should not be - if that is the case, those Umbrellas should be named so that individuals can ensure it doesn't happen to them. But, there is also an onus on individual contractors to ensure they are aware of what they are being charged.
    Come April next year the agencies are liable for any tax not paid.

    Even now if you discover that your umbrella isn't deducting the tax correctly it's the contractor who has to make up the difference.
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  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by eek View Post
    Come April next year the agencies are liable for any tax not paid.

    Even now if you discover that your umbrella isn't deducting the tax correctly it's the contractor who has to make up the difference.
    Ok, but once again: How might the FCSA cost some people a lot of money?

    Is there any evidence that FCSA members are not deducting the correct tax (notwithstanding the suggestion that some could be wrongfully charing apprentice levy - if so, they should be named)?

    And, if the correct tax has not been paid, then I'd expect the contractor to pay it (I'm assuming there's no suggesting that the Umbrella has been taking more than their margin). It's their tax liability after all.
    Last edited by Paralytic; 26th November 2020 at 16:44.

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paralytic View Post
    Ok, but once again: How might the FCSA cost some people a lot of money?

    Is there any evidence that FCSA members are not deducting the correct tax (notwithstanding the suggestion that some could be wrongfully charing apprentice levy - if so, they should be named)?

    And, if the correct tax has not been paid, then I'd expect the contractor to pay it (I'm assuming there's no suggesting that the Umbrella has been taking more than their margin). It's their tax liability after all.
    If a newly created and tiny umbrella with no history can be accredited then you have to ask how rigorous their audit process really is. And that in turns leads to the conclusion that the FSCA offers no protection against the more imaginative umbrellas. And therein lies the risk...
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  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paralytic View Post
    Ok, but once again: How might the FCSA cost some people a lot of money?

    Is there any evidence that FCSA members are not deducting the correct tax (notwithstanding the suggestion that some could be wrongfully charing apprentice levy - if so, they should be named)?

    And, if the correct tax has not been paid, then I'd expect the contractor to pay it (I'm assuming there's no suggesting that the Umbrella has been taking more than their margin). It's their tax liability after all.
    You do love to attempt defend them by asking us questions which we then explain but you offer zero postive defense at all.
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  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by northernladuk View Post
    You do love to attempt defend them by asking us questions which we then explain but you offer zero postive defense at all.
    I'm not trying to defend them - I think their policy of making it difficult for new entrants is despicable. But, I've seen 2 claims on this thread, neither of which have any documented evidence.

    - They have accredited "dodgy" Umbrellas
    - Using an FCSA Umbrella could lead to people losing lots of money (this is no more true than someone using a non-accredited one)

    If either of these can be shown to be true, then it can be used by contractors to push back against agencies who enforce the use of FCSA accredited Umbrellas from their PSL.
    Last edited by Paralytic; 27th November 2020 at 09:28.

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paralytic View Post
    I'm not trying to defend them - I think their policy of making it difficult for new entrants is despicable. But, I've seen 2 claims on this thread, neither of which have any documented evidence.

    - They have accredited "dodgy" Umbrellas
    - Using an FCSA Umbrella could lead to people losing lots of money (this is no more true than someone using a non-accredited one)

    If either of these can be shown to be true, then it can be used by contractors to push back against agencies who enforce the use of FCSA accredited Umbrellas from their PSL.
    Not true - I have evidence for point 1 I'm just not going to publish it on a public forum - Malvolio has seen the technique and you should note he doesn't disagree with me (and we usually disagree and argue over everything).

    And if point 1 is true then by definition your second point is equally true. But the bracketed point there actually isn't valid - the FCSA advertise themselves as the safe option and while they probably are for agencies that may not be true for the contractor. If an agency recommended a non-credited umbrella that was dodgy the missing tax could flow back to the agency for payment, but FCSA affiliation would be enough (at the moment) to mitigate that.

    But equally I'm not concerned about pushing back at the enforced use of FCSA umbrellas at the moment - beyond a couple of exceptions it's very hard to know who is actually honest - and you have to give agencies some leeway - until a better method of checking compliance comes along you stick to what you know.
    Last edited by eek; 27th November 2020 at 09:41.
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  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paralytic View Post

    If either of these can be shown to be true, then it can be used by contractors to push back against agencies who enforce the use of FCSA accredited Umbrellas from their PSL.
    But it won't. Whinging contractor vs large trade body (but it isn't). That's just not going to work. The fact FCSA is rotten from within won't be a factor for the agents decisions.
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  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by northernladuk View Post
    But it won't. Whinging contractor vs large trade body (but it isn't). That's just not going to work. The fact FCSA is rotten from within won't be a factor for the agents decisions.
    FCSA allows agencies to use a quick tick box which removes a problem for them.

    Only when someone comes along with a better solution will the FCSA become irrelevant for agencies.
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