APN and penalty

[webberg]

The following is a response from HMRC - OFFICIAL.

The example given is where an APN for £100 is issued, not paid so attracts a maximum 15% penalty and later the final liability is less than £100. In other words the APN as issued is excessive and perhaps issued in order to coerce people into settlement.

Dear Mr xxxxxxx,

The late payment penalties apply if payment is not made in respect of an APN by the due date, irrespective of the final outcome of the matter. So in your example below, the total of £15 of penalties would remain.

When there is a JR challenge, the penalty is chargeable from the stated due date for payment of the APN.

I have not checked the rules in depth yet but I think another series of challenges is probably the result if this response is correct.

[StrengthInNumbers]

How sensible.

Definitely jr should be able to do something about this stupidity.

[webberg]

How sensible.

Definitely jr should be able to do something about this stupidity.

Read the third paragraph in particular.

https://www.judiciary.gov.uk/you-and...dicial-review/

A JR is is about the PROCESS. Has the process and procedure been applied correctly? Is HMRC (in this case) competent to exercise the authority? Has that authority been applied in the way the rules say?

A challenge to the actual law has to be brought under different legislation.

Consequently if the LAW produces the above result (and I'm not convinced it does), then we may well be stuffed.

[StrengthInNumbers]

JR cannot be based on human rights (or if something like right to basic justice exist) etc? It has to be only process?

[StrengthInNumbers]

Seems like completely useless JR. Basically government can do the same again.

[webberg]

In areas like immigration and health, JR is often used to allege abuse of process and thus force a change in the process (which usually requires a change in the law).

It works very well in such areas because it's easy to draw international comparisons and contrasts.

Matters which are protected by sovereign privilege (tax) - much more difficult to use JR as a tool to change the law. Not impossible, but difficult.

[squirrel]

Just out of interest...

APN lands on the mat for £50k. Can't pay it, can't agree a TTP with HMRC because they're being unreasonable ;-) HMRC add penalties. 5%, another 5% and then another 5% after 12 months. £7.5k penalties in total. So what. Couldn't pay the £50k, not much is going to change when it becomes £57.5k!

Kind of reminds me of banks adding charges for unpaid DDs that take you even further into overdraft. I thought the banks got told off by the government for doing that and there is a lot of bank charges reclaiming going on...

Anyway, when do HMRC start threatening court action etc? After the 12 months and 15% penalties added or immediately the APN becomes unpaid?

[StrengthInNumbers]

I think they will wait for 11 months based in the way they are going about things.

[webberg]

APN lands on the mat for £50k. Can't pay it, can't agree a TTP with HMRC because they're being unreasonable ;-) HMRC add penalties. 5%, another 5% and then another 5% after 12 months. £7.5k penalties in total. So what. Couldn't pay the £50k, not much is going to change when it becomes £57.5k!

Kind of reminds me of banks adding charges for unpaid DDs that take you even further into overdraft. I thought the banks got told off by the government for doing that and there is a lot of bank charges reclaiming going on...

Anyway, when do HMRC start threatening court action etc? After the 12 months and 15% penalties added or immediately the APN becomes unpaid?

I'd agree with Strength on action over the penalty.

Action over the APN perhaps a few months after due date, especially if you've not contacted them

[zimbtar]

I'd agree with Strength on action over the penalty.

Action over the APN perhaps a few months after due date, especially if you've not contacted them

What if you have already told them that there is no way you can pay the amount of the SO and there is no way you are willing to pay £x00s / month for the rest of your days?
This is of course in writing and recorded.

HMRC - We want £ xx 000s.
"Customer" - I don't have it
HMRC - Well in that case we want £ x 000s + another £ xx 00s in penalties and £ xx 00s in interest.
"Customer" - I don't have it
etc