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eddie1507
24th August 2015, 20:50
Just catching up on the budget as thought it was about time i did so.

From my understanding as long as you fall under IR35 and work via your own limited company and not under the direction supervision and control of the client then the only changes this budget is really implementing is dividend tax changing and NI contributions is that correct ?

Obveriously HMRC will investigate into the direction and control a little more i believe but is there anything else that i should missed ?

eek
24th August 2015, 20:56
Just catching up on the budget as thought it was about time i did so.

From my understanding as long as you fall under IR35 and work via your own limited company and not under the direction supervision and control of the client then the only changes this budget is really implementing is dividend tax changing and NI contributions is that correct ?

Obveriously HMRC will investigate into the direction and control a little more i believe but is there anything else that i should missed ?

Its Direction, Supervision or Control (any one of them) or the right to Direction, Supervision or Control... And its hard not to fall under it as the rules are very broad to capture everyone (I believe you can argue that a criminal judge and an MP would fail to work around those rules)..

Then we have the great unknown where anyone supplied via an agency is automatically subject to SDorC (although that may not be 100% accurate)..

So the first impact will be no expenses from 5/4/16... Then IR35 may be tightened to be based on SDorC on 5/4/17 with potentionally the same logic that via agency = SDorC...

So I really wouldn't say that nothing is changing. Our entire industry could be gone in 18 months...

eddie1507
24th August 2015, 21:13
Its Direction, Supervision or Control (any one of them) or the right to Direction, Supervision or Control... And its hard not to fall under it as the rules are very broad to capture everyone (I believe you can argue that a criminal judge and an MP would fail to work around those rules)..

Then we have the great unknown where anyone supplied via an agency is automatically subject to SDorC (although that may not be 100% accurate)..

So the first impact will be no expenses from 5/4/16... Then IR35 may be tightened to be based on SDorC on 5/4/17 with potentionally the same logic that via agency = SDorC...

So I really wouldn't say that nothing is changing. Our entire industry could be gone in 18 months...

Thanks for the response.

Via agency your referring to recruitment agency or umbrella agency ?

If we were to fall under supervision would that mean then we are inside ir35? And have the 5% expense rule ?

eek
24th August 2015, 21:33
Thanks for the response.

Via agency your referring to recruitment agency or umbrella agency ?

If we were to fall under supervision would that mean then we are inside ir35? And have the 5% expense rule ?

Recruitment agency. Supervision is currently enough to fall under the new look ir35. And as its changing there may not be a 5% expense rule

TestMangler
24th August 2015, 21:36
Recruitment agency. Supervision is currently enough to fall under the new look ir35. And as its changing there may not be a 5% expense rule

Is this guy for real ? Not you Eek, the OP :eek

eek
24th August 2015, 22:14
Is this guy for real ? Not you Eek, the OP :eek

Sadly yep. It's remarkable how few people know this stuff because they depend on their accountants to keep them up to date and their accountants don't understand what is happening.

On level on knowledge I think your typical person on here knows most.
Then iPse members
Then you typical none iPse contractor (who will know very little and understand less).

At least two posters have said today that their colleagues know nothing I'm sure it's the same at my current client I except those who I'm working directly with so know where I am tomorrow afternoon and why

unixman
24th August 2015, 22:48
So I really wouldn't say that nothing is changing. Our entire industry could be gone in 18 months...

It is all just ifs and buts so far. Proposals, discussion papers and government statements are very different from actual law. There isn't much point in suffering 1000 times for something which may never become law, or in trying to second guess what eventual laws may turn out to be. As for contracting disappearing - unlikely. Nearly all large companies depend on contractors, who form an integral part of their operating model.

The only danger really is that we have no representative body (I don't count IPSE), and are therefore more vulnerable than other groups. Contracting won't disappear - the big companies who hire us will see to that. But it may well become less profitable, and permanent salaries might also be driven down in consequence, something the big companies would also like.

We (all freelancers) ought to form a real representative body (like the PCG was), and quickly.

eek
24th August 2015, 22:55
Yep we need something led by people who are willing to listen to options and not just try and defend their single idea.

I'm not volunteering though. I have enough on with the survey and getting a decent plan for a project based ir35 test or anything else that an end client could reliable use but not abuse.

If anyone has any ideas no matter how half baked ( any plan is probably more sane and rational than the flc) please post in the http://forums.contractoruk.com/accounting-legal/108470-ir35-back-first-principles.html thread and if you haven't filled in a survey yet see my signature

northernladuk
24th August 2015, 22:56
Is this guy for real ? Not you Eek, the OP :eek

This. You can't move in here for threads about this but someone still has to ask weeks later. I'd guess he's not bothered to fill any of the surveys that might actually help us either.

NibblyPig
25th August 2015, 07:38
Thought I read a thread the other day where people suggested you'd probably be OK if you could prove any one of SD&C did not apply.

Did I misread or have things changed?

eek
25th August 2015, 08:49
Thought I read a thread the other day where people suggested you'd probably be OK if you could prove any one of SD&C did not apply.

Did I misread or have things changed?

It depends on how their interpret it. The worry is that the test will change from being NOT subject to Supervision, Direction or Control to being subject to Supervision, Direction or Control..

You can see how such a minor change in wording (which we don't know is intentional or not) makes a significant change to the question....

unixman
25th August 2015, 10:29
If all else fails, just stop paying dividends and put your prices accordingly. If we all go PAYE it will be better than the current situation where some are PAYE and some aren't. At the moment, some of us pay dividends and are therefore able to undercut others. Companies know this and use it to knock down rates. In my view, if they need the flexibility of contractors, maybe they should be paying for it.

And it will dissuade the disguised employees (10 years in same "contract", at the same desk, 5 miles from home, often public sector) who have brought freelancing into disrepute.

eek
25th August 2015, 12:51
Yep we need something led by people who are willing to listen to options and not just try and defend their single idea.

I'm not volunteering though. I have enough on with the survey and getting a decent plan for a project based ir35 test or anything else that an end client could reliable use but not abuse.

If anyone has any ideas no matter how half baked ( any plan is probably more sane and rational than the flc) please post in the http://forums.contractoruk.com/accounting-legal/108470-ir35-back-first-principles.html thread and if you haven't filled in a survey yet see my signature

Might have to correct that after the meetings this morning... Have to have a think....

Antman
25th August 2015, 15:08
Might have to correct that after the meetings this morning... Have to have a think....

Cue Tina Turner "Beyond the thunderdome"...

eek
25th August 2015, 15:53
Cue Tina Turner "Beyond the thunderdome"...

Yep but I really don't want to be a hero. I'm just rapidly stumbling into something like that role..

The reason why I did the survey was because Webberg wanted to do one. That survey no matter how good it was would be tainted by
the fact he works in Tax and HMRC's opinion of him and hence the survey could be biased because of it.

So I did the survey myself because it wasn't fair to say don't do one if no one else was going to...

I now have the results and figures and now the question is how do I present them. Given that I want people to read and agree / argue with the T&S and IR35 responses I'm going to write, its getting very close to being a group response in actuality rather than an individual one.

And on that basis it may actually be worth making it into an official group representing contractors rather than just myself.... Especially given comments I heard multiple times today that the IPSE isn't actual represents contractors that well and especially isn't represent some subsets of them (I think even IPSE would accept that)..

Antman
26th August 2015, 08:30
I forwarded the questionnaire to every contractor I know and asked them to forward to others. The general feedback was the same as many other's experience on this forum - pure ignorance of the situation.

eek
26th August 2015, 09:20
I forwarded the questionnaire to every contractor I know and asked them to forward to others. The general feedback was the same as many other's experience on this forum - pure ignorance of the situation.

Hardly surprising most people will sleep walk into this mess not realising until its too late..

Think I will be doing a website / campaign (but not a big one and little more than the absolute minimum) for a while. Just long enough to send responses to the current consultation and discussion documents and the final IR35 consultation document. After that it will hopefully die a death..