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webberg
4th September 2015, 16:59
We are starting to see evidence of how HMRC will be approaching years 2011/12 and beyond.

For those of you who made a return for that period but had no enquiry notice, you will get a letter saying that HMRC has examined 12/13 and have questions that may extend to 11/12 so can they please have some information. Relatively easy to deal with.

For those of you who DID NOT make a return for 11/12 you are likely to get a letter asking you to make a return within 3 months. Failure to do so will result in a section 28C TMA 1970 determination.

The determination is essentially an assessment based on HMRC guesses.

You CANNOT appeal the determination.

You CAN displace it by submitting the return.

However the letter inviting a return starts with a warning that HMRC's Counter Avoidance team believe you have committed tax avoidance. The implicit threat is that a return without loan amounts will be seen as incomplete and perhaps open for penalty. A return with loan values shown as income is perhaps an admission of income that has escaped liability.

Remember that this is SELF assessment, so you have to careful.

Throw in Cotter and de Silva so that nobody knows what a return is or is not and we have a brewing recipe for more accusations of HMRC being less than straightforward.

If you get a letter first check that you have not submitted a return or had one submitted on your behalf. If you are in this situation, just tell HMRC that.

If you have NOT submitted a return - GET ADVICE.

The rules here mean that the determination has to be issued before 31/1/16.

The current crop of return requests has a deadline of late November. Expect more.

foobar
7th September 2015, 20:55
I never submitted a tax return. So you fill in the form with the loan amounts and then appeal any assessment. Why did you say "GET ADVICE" like that? What am I missing here?

webberg
7th September 2015, 22:25
I never submitted a tax return. So you fill in the form with the loan amounts and then appeal any assessment. Why did you say "GET ADVICE" like that? What am I missing here?

If you complete the form claiming (via the white space) that the loans are loans and not taxable, you will almost certainly get an APN in due course and depending on how the return/claim is completed might leave yourself open to a penalty in due course, should HMRC win.

If you complete the form and leave out any mention of the loans, aside from perhaps a BIK charge, HMRC will issue an APN and perhaps claim that the return is incomplete.

If you complete the form and enter the loan values with no explanation, you may, depending on the outcome of the de Silva case (and a few others) have admitted liability.

I'm saying that the situation is not simple and the scare tactics adopted by HMRC are not making it any easier either.

Get professional advice.

EBTContractor
10th September 2015, 02:12
sent to people who did not receive a 2012/13 enquiry, or also people who did receive a 2012/13 enquiry?

My situation is I received a 2012/13 enquiry about contractor loans and HMRC replied back saying no amends needed as I wasn't part of a contractor loan type arrangement, so assume I will not receive a new letter?

Cheers.

thebear14
10th September 2015, 12:46
I'm in the category where I did receive an enquiry for 12/13 and have also now received one of these letters

thebear14
10th September 2015, 12:55
Should also add that the letter is for 2011/12 requesting self assessment which I find odd given I was in permanent employment for that tax year and therefore standard paye. Didn't move to contracting till July 2012

LetsGoSailing
10th September 2015, 13:56
Should also add that the letter is for 2011/12 requesting self assessment which I find odd given I was in permanent employment for that tax year and therefore standard paye. Didn't move to contracting till July 2012

I was also a PAYE employee in 2012 but still received one of these saying they believe I was involved in a scheme and that I need to submit my overdue self assessment etc..

bolloks

thebear14
10th September 2015, 14:19
How are you going to play it, send the self assessment back or wait till deadline and then query the validity given your perm status?

LetsGoSailing
10th September 2015, 14:22
I've sent it back, didn't see any harm in doing so or reason not to.

thebear14
10th September 2015, 15:15
Fair point, if you weren't using the scheme at that point it'll make no difference. I'm just loathe to give them anything they ask for in any reasonable time frame

webberg
10th September 2015, 16:08
I think HMRC are just desperate to be seen to be covering all bases given the hammering they've taken over "allowing" some members of tax avoidance schemes to escape tax because of poor administration.

Remember that HMRC is an administrator, not a source of the judgement in tax, and therefore an administrative cock up hurts them more than getting the analysis wrong.

If you were not in a scheme for the earlier year, then just tell them.

thebear14
11th September 2015, 12:19
Just waiting on a response from my accountant whether querying back why it's required will be sufficient giving my perm status or as per the letter, actually having to complete the assessment

njwilli3
23rd September 2015, 11:36
Is this the case whether your DOTAS or NON-DOTAS?

webberg
23rd September 2015, 12:44
Is this the case whether your DOTAS or NON-DOTAS?

Is what the case?

The use of a 28C determination is agnostic so far as DOTAS/non DOTAS is concerned. Equally the request for a tax return is valid whether or not the scheme is DOTAS or otherwise.

njwilli3
24th September 2015, 09:26
Is what the case?

The use of a 28C determination is agnostic so far as DOTAS/non DOTAS is concerned. Equally the request for a tax return is valid whether or not the scheme is DOTAS or otherwise.

Apologies - I mean't the issue of an APN after you submit the SA. Can they still issue an APN if your scheme was Non-Dotas?

I get the determination will apply regardless, but then it sounds like a determination is pretty much the same as an APN?

meanttobeworking
25th September 2015, 15:02
I am in what I think is a new category. I was in a scheme 09/10, but haven't used one since. I have done SA's every year since, but they've now sent me this letter saying they think I was in a scheme 11/12 and want to do a compliance check. Any ideas what proof they'll accept that I wasn't in a scheme? Or can I just tell them to prove it, based on that fact it's 100% impossible to prove as I didn't use one.

They're really starting to wind me up now!

regron
26th September 2015, 07:59
If you definitely wasn't in a scheme that year then you must have been PAYE or LTD right? Either way, easy enough to prove.
However, if it was me, I would string them along for as long as possible and waste their time and resource. It seems to be the only weapon we all have in the current climate.