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psychocandy
21st December 2016, 10:36
Got to be fair my current one is probably the best ever. Well the local guys at least.

Out of the blue, got offered a gig yesterday. Never had that before - 5 min chat when can you start.

7 miles from home. Decent rate. With the uncertainty at current client (and its maybe public sector) I can't see it going for another extension anyway (and I've been here over two years). With the ongoing saga with my old man and dear wifes health a local gig would be golden at this point.

The problem is I'm in current gig until end Feb and new place want mid Jan latest start. Problem.

So I've spoken to Service Manager at current client. He good as gold to be honest and has been good to me over the last two years. So I was straight with him and hes happy to try and sort something for end Jan maybe. Which is pretty good of him.

Unfortunately, head office will have the final say so it might go pear-shaped yet. Going to be a challenge to get something sorted mind before xmas.

NLUK will be proud of me. I've got no intention of pulling a sickie or leaving without notice. Still be a bit gutted if they say no.

But any other options?

ladymuck
21st December 2016, 10:40
Sounds like you're on a fixed term with no termination clause?

I wonder if your friendly Service Manager could fabricate a breach of contract that would mean they have to exit you?

psychocandy
21st December 2016, 10:44
Sounds like you're on a fixed term with no termination clause?

I wonder if your friendly Service Manager could fabricate a breach of contract that would mean they have to exit you?

Its a proper contract albeit three months with no notice period for me. Client (the consultancy) has a one week notice which the service manager will invoke if hes allowed to. Which clears things up with the agency.

But obviously I cant exect him to put his neck on the line for me.

VillageContractor
21st December 2016, 10:45
Got to be fair my current one is probably the best ever. Well the local guys at least.

Out of the blue, got offered a gig yesterday. Never had that before - 5 min chat when can you start.

7 miles from home. Decent rate. With the uncertainty at current client (and its maybe public sector) I can't see it going for another extension anyway (and I've been here over two years). With the ongoing saga with my old man and dear wifes health a local gig would be golden at this point.

The problem is I'm in current gig until end Feb and new place want mid Jan latest start. Problem.

So I've spoken to Service Manager at current client. He good as gold to be honest and has been good to me over the last two years. So I was straight with him and hes happy to try and sort something for end Jan maybe. Which is pretty good of him.

Unfortunately, head office will have the final say so it might go pear-shaped yet. Going to be a challenge to get something sorted mind before xmas.

NLUK will be proud of me. I've got no intention of pulling a sickie or leaving without notice. Still be a bit gutted if they say no.

But any other options?

What's your notice period? Sounds like you don't have one or not willing to use it.

If that's the case it's probably fool hardy. Considering everything going on at home a local gig would be ideal so I wouldn't risk losing the new gig.

psychocandy
21st December 2016, 10:52
What's your notice period? Sounds like you don't have one or not willing to use it.

If that's the case it's probably fool hardy. Considering everything going on at home a local gig would be ideal so I wouldn't risk losing the new gig.

No notice period like I said. Client has one week.

Hmmm all well and good saying that but I can't ditch the current gig like that. NLUK would disagree with me but even I've got some principles. Not many mind.

But current client have been very good to me over the past two years.

TheFaQQer
21st December 2016, 10:54
RoS is your friend here.

jjdarg
21st December 2016, 11:08
Having been on the other side of this, where guys on my team have been offered gigs close to home, particularly if the client engages a lot of contractors as a matter of course, there is usually no drama in letting them go. If the immediate client you work with has no qualms, I wouldn't see much of a problem, contract terms or not.

Yeah, it's a pig to find a replacement, but holding someone back from a good opportunity only guarantees you're probably going to lose them sooner rather than later anyway, whilst not necessarily receiving the best from them until that point.

But then, I'm speaking with my limited experience.

psychocandy
21st December 2016, 11:21
RoS is your friend here.

Hmm. Good point - its in the contract of course. BUT,

1) Client would probably not go for it.
2) Where would I get someone?

psychocandy
21st December 2016, 11:22
Having been on the other side of this, where guys on my team have been offered gigs close to home, particularly if the client engages a lot of contractors as a matter of course, there is usually no drama in letting them go. If the immediate client you work with has no qualms, I wouldn't see much of a problem, contract terms or not.

Yeah, it's a pig to find a replacement, but holding someone back from a good opportunity only guarantees you're probably going to lose them sooner rather than later anyway, whilst not necessarily receiving the best from them until that point.

But then, I'm speaking with my limited experience.

Im hoping this. If it was totally up to the local people then they know how I've been last few years and it'd be ok. But some face at head office who doesnt care a monkeys might be different...

TheFaQQer
21st December 2016, 11:24
1) Client would probably not go for it.

Which is exactly what you want - you are trying to meet the contract, client will not accept that. Client is in breach of contract, so you have no option but to terminate for breach.

northernladuk
21st December 2016, 11:25
You are just a BAU bum on seat so if they can't handover your duties to an intern/apprentice in a month they are doing something badly wrong.

If you were in a specialist role and the only person delivering then it would be a problem. You are not so can't see them having a problem. No one wants a contractor around that doesn't want to be there and they've got over a month to sort it. The other option is you bail without saying a word next time so it's in your clients interests to grasp this opportunity with both hands.

Negotiationing will bring this to a close without having to fall back on contractual terms IMO.

northernladuk
21st December 2016, 11:31
Which is exactly what you want - you are trying to meet the contract, client will not accept that. Client is in breach of contract, so you have no option but to terminate for breach.

It's not as straight forward as that. You have to give them the option to rectify and various other things to do it properly before you just claim breach and flounce off which all takes time. Not really going to work in the timescales required.

If you were going to do that you don't want it to go legal as you are likely to lose in which case you might as well just walk out the door and not come back. You are just relying on the fact it won't go any further.

VillageContractor
21st December 2016, 11:31
No notice period like I said. Client has one week.

Hmmm all well and good saying that but I can't ditch the current gig like that. NLUK would disagree with me but even I've got some principles. Not many mind.

But current client have been very good to me over the past two years.

Family comes first.

TheFaQQer
21st December 2016, 11:34
It's not as straight forward as that. You have to give them the option to rectify and various other things to do it properly before you just claim breach and flounce off which all takes time. Not really going to work in the timescales required.

If you were going to do that you don't want it to go legal as you are likely to lose in which case you might as well just walk out the door and not come back. You are just relying on the fact it won't go any further.

The option to retify is simple - either they accept the substitute for the month or they don't.

If they accept the substitute then it's fine. If they breach a fundamental part of the contract (see breach of warranty v breach of condition), then it's fine.

northernladuk
21st December 2016, 11:38
The option to retify is simple - either they accept the substitute for the month or they don't.

If they accept the substitute then it's fine. If they breach a fundamental part of the contract (see breach of warranty v breach of condition), then it's fine.

We will only know when it's tested but they can quite reasonably delay that decision a bit. Then there is finding someone and training them up at your time/own cost etc. The practicalities of it make it unweildly and is likely to end in a bun fight so probably be easier just to say I'm off and just go.

psychocandy
21st December 2016, 11:40
You are just a BAU bum on seat so if they can't handover your duties to an intern/apprentice in a month they are doing something badly wrong.

If you were in a specialist role and the only person delivering then it would be a problem. You are not so can't see them having a problem. No one wants a contractor around that doesn't want to be there and they've got over a month to sort it. The other option is you bail without saying a word next time so it's in your clients interests to grasp this opportunity with both hands.

Negotiationing will bring this to a close without having to fall back on contractual terms IMO.

Ha ha - despite what you may thin I am the only person delivering one aspect lol.

Not going to play funny buggers contractually. Its not fair. Must be something wrong with me - I've changed into NLUK.

psychocandy
21st December 2016, 11:42
Family comes first.

It does but I would rather sort this out amicably. If they say no then Im not sure yet what my next move would be.

psychocandy
21st December 2016, 11:43
We will only know when it's tested but they can quite reasonably delay that decision a bit. Then there is finding someone and training them up at your time/own cost etc. The practicalities of it make it unweildly and is likely to end in a bun fight so probably be easier just to say I'm off and just go.

I agree. If I mention sub the local people are likely to say "Eh? first we've heard about this". Then like you said, how do I get someone up to speed?

gables
21st December 2016, 11:44
I think PC has been drinking, what no sickie? morals? look after number one at all costs? Blimey they say it's a changing world :-)

psychocandy
21st December 2016, 11:49
I think PC has been drinking, what no sickie? morals? look after number one at all costs? Blimey they say it's a changing world :-)

Thank you Gables. Generally, my attitude is clients/agencies stuff them. I dont actually care about the end client overall.

BUT I do care about the local people here onsite who may be dropped right in it if I leave.

There are certain clients in the past I'd have just walked out the door because they were tossers. BUT current local client guy has been nothing but fair and honest with me the last few years. Hes even been good about it when I asked this.

TheFaQQer
21st December 2016, 11:53
We will only know when it's tested but they can quite reasonably delay that decision a bit. Then there is finding someone and training them up at your time/own cost etc. The practicalities of it make it unweildly and is likely to end in a bun fight so probably be easier just to say I'm off and just go.

I'm surprised that you would accept that a breach of contract is better than no breach, but each to their own.

northernladuk
21st December 2016, 12:01
I'm surprised that you would accept that a breach of contract is better than no breach, but each to their own.

I'm not saying that. Just chatting about the possible practicalities of RoS being a golden bullet. In some cases I'm sure it is the right way to go but in the OP's instance I am sure negotiation will be the way out of this one.

If all that fails then yes, you are right, you can start down the contractual terms agreed.

northernladuk
21st December 2016, 12:02
I think PC has been drinking, what no sickie? morals? look after number one at all costs? Blimey they say it's a changing world :-)

Don't hold your breath.

psychocandy
21st December 2016, 12:04
Don't hold your breath.

Since its xmas Im going to be nice to NLUK. Have a cwtch. :hug:

northernladuk
21st December 2016, 12:06
Since its xmas Im going to be nice to NLUK. Have a cwtch. :hug:

My last infraction has expired so it's still open season here. :D

psychocandy
21st December 2016, 12:10
My last infraction has expired so it's still open season here. :D

NLUK cariad. I was being nice mun. I love you 2 sheep really.

aoxomoxoa
21st December 2016, 14:12
Judging by the amount of time the OP spends posting here he can't be in that crucial a role. Suggest he points this out when negotiating to finish early. :happy

MaryPoppins
21st December 2016, 15:35
Negotiationing will bring this to a close without having to fall back on contractual terms IMO.


Is this a top notch legal term?

northernladyuk
21st December 2016, 15:38
RoS is your friend here.

PC is a bum-on-seat inside IR35 permatractor.

northernladuk
21st December 2016, 15:40
Is this a top notch legal term?

Lol. Busted.

northernladyuk
21st December 2016, 15:42
Got to be fair my current one is probably the best ever. Well the local guys at least.

Out of the blue, got offered a gig yesterday. Never had that before - 5 min chat when can you start.

7 miles from home. Decent rate. With the uncertainty at current client (and its maybe public sector) I can't see it going for another extension anyway (and I've been here over two years). With the ongoing saga with my old man and dear wifes health a local gig would be golden at this point.

The problem is I'm in current gig until end Feb and new place want mid Jan latest start. Problem.

So I've spoken to Service Manager at current client. He good as gold to be honest and has been good to me over the last two years. So I was straight with him and hes happy to try and sort something for end Jan maybe. Which is pretty good of him.

Unfortunately, head office will have the final say so it might go pear-shaped yet. Going to be a challenge to get something sorted mind before xmas.

NLUK will be proud of me. I've got no intention of pulling a sickie or leaving without notice. Still be a bit gutted if they say no.

But any other options?

Will the new gig give you alternate Tuesday mornings off for signing on or will you still need to get your brother-in-law to sub for that.

psychocandy
22nd December 2016, 08:54
Will the new gig give you alternate Tuesday mornings off for signing on or will you still need to get your brother-in-law to sub for that.

Now theres an idea.

psychocandy
22nd December 2016, 08:54
As expected, nothing is going to get sorted before xmas it seems. Expected that. Hey ho.

I guess no-one is bothered before xmas.

NigelJK
22nd December 2016, 09:00
I'm assuming that given the subs clause your contract is outside IR35. In which case there should also be a clause about availability. You can legitimately say I'm not available from x to y.

This has happened to me and client a was happy for me to do a couple of evenings a week until handed over. Client b does not need to know as this all comes under normal trading for most ltd co's.

northernladyuk
22nd December 2016, 09:01
I'm assuming that given the subs clause your contract is outside IR35.

:rollin: You naughty boy, Nige, I didn't think you had it in you!

psychocandy
29th December 2016, 09:54
I'm assuming that given the subs clause your contract is outside IR35. In which case there should also be a clause about availability. You can legitimately say I'm not available from x to y.

This has happened to me and client a was happy for me to do a couple of evenings a week until handed over. Client b does not need to know as this all comes under normal trading for most ltd co's.

Yes I CAN do that I guess but its not nice really is it?

Must admit though, if the current client says no leave early and new place says not waiting that long I'm going to be in a difficult position. After all, its not more money I'm leaving for more for my family situation. To be honest, even though current client is a bit of trek on the train Im used to it and I like working here. (If it wasnt was my family situation and the public sector changes I'd stay for definite).

vetran
29th December 2016, 11:32
Lol. Busted.

teach you to outsource posting to Mumbai so you can sub (& Dom) for the Mrs.

Bee
29th December 2016, 11:59
Congratulations. :yay:


Got to be fair my current one is probably the best ever. Well the local guys at least.

Out of the blue, got offered a gig yesterday. Never had that before - 5 min chat when can you start.

7 miles from home. Decent rate. With the uncertainty at current client (and its maybe public sector) I can't see it going for another extension anyway (and I've been here over two years). With the ongoing saga with my old man and dear wifes health a local gig would be golden at this point.

The problem is I'm in current gig until end Feb and new place want mid Jan latest start. Problem.

So I've spoken to Service Manager at current client. He good as gold to be honest and has been good to me over the last two years. So I was straight with him and hes happy to try and sort something for end Jan maybe. Which is pretty good of him.

Unfortunately, head office will have the final say so it might go pear-shaped yet. Going to be a challenge to get something sorted mind before xmas.

NLUK will be proud of me. I've got no intention of pulling a sickie or leaving without notice. Still be a bit gutted if they say no.

But any other options?

psychocandy
29th December 2016, 14:35
Congratulations. :yay:

Not a done deal yet Bee

Bee
29th December 2016, 16:04
Not a done deal yet Bee

:igmc:

I hope that my congrats in advance shall not give you bad luck. :igmc:

Whorty
29th December 2016, 16:31
Its a proper contract albeit three months with no notice period for me. Client (the consultancy) has a one week notice which the service manager will invoke if hes allowed to. Which clears things up with the agency.

But obviously I cant exect him to put his neck on the line for me.

How can you have a contract with no notice period for you but client has a 1 week notice period? Doesn't everyone insist that notice periods are equal on both sides?

What would have happened should you have, say, broken a leg or something and can't get into the client office ... if you have no notice period you can invoke you'd be up the creek without a paddle :eek

northernladuk
29th December 2016, 17:27
How can you have a contract with no notice period for you but client has a 1 week notice period? Doesn't everyone insist that notice periods are equal on both sides?

What would have happened should you have, say, broken a leg or something and can't get into the client office ... if you have no notice period you can invoke you'd be up the creek without a paddle :eek

You need to get a better grip on notices I am afraid.
Notice periods vary. Some the same, some unequal and in some cases there isn't any. IR35 wise no notice is best.

At the end of the day they are pretty irrelevant if the clients wants rid. We work T&M. If the client doesn't give us work we stop earning there and then regardless of notice.

If you can't fulfil you obligations to the contract then notice period is irrelevant. It's kinda dead there and then and probably will be terminated under other aspects of the contract.

A bit of research and better understanding of the contract clauses and notice periods wouldn't go amiss.

northernladuk
29th December 2016, 17:28
https://www.crunch.co.uk/blog/freelancer-advice/2015/05/27/notice-periods-in-freelance-contracts-a-good-idea/

Whorty
29th December 2016, 18:55
You need to get a better grip on notices I am afraid.
Notice periods vary. Some the same, some unequal and in some cases there isn't any. IR35 wise no notice is best.

At the end of the day they are pretty irrelevant if the clients wants rid. We work T&M. If the client doesn't give us work we stop earning there and then regardless of notice.

If you can't fulfil you obligations to the contract then notice period is irrelevant. It's kinda dead there and then and probably will be terminated under other aspects of the contract.

A bit of research and better understanding of the contract clauses and notice periods wouldn't go amiss.

Not to start an argument with you, as you're clearly the font of all knowledge and always right, but what you say is absolute tosh, IR35 or not. The clue is in the word contract; the terms contained are enforceable albeit at a cost, should either party want to go to court. I make sure that notice periods are always equal for both me and the client - twice I've been asked to sign contracts where the client can give me 5 days notice, and me 3 months. Both times I've had the contracts changed as I refuse to sign unequal contracts.

But hey, you know best. Please don't feel the need to try and argue back NLUK, and bully your views on others as you always do, as I can see all you ever want to do is be a keyboard warrior and to be honest, I can't be @rsed to respond to any reply. Bullies are best ignored :popcorn:

northernladuk
29th December 2016, 19:20
Yep but there are also terms in the contract that means the client can effectively terminate you immediatly. They just withdraw any work which means you have zero hours on your time sheet and you don't get paid however long your period. Effective immediate termination so notice period is a bit irrelevant.

It's just common sense to negotiate out a 3 month notice and they are happy to so do as they know it's pretty irrelevant as per my comment above.

What is it about uneven notices that are so bad that you won't sign? 3 months is pretty unreasonable whatever.

It's not bullying. The comment about breaking a leg shows you don't quite understand so some more reading would be worthwhile. That's not bullying. I'd add some growsum to your notice period research.

Whorty
29th December 2016, 19:53
Yep but there are also terms in the contract that means the client can effectively terminate you immediatly. They just withdraw any work which means you have zero hours on your time sheet and you don't get paid however long your period. Effective immediate termination so notice period is a bit irrelevant.

It's just common sense to negotiate out a 3 month notice and they are happy to so do as they know it's pretty irrelevant as per my comment above.

What is it about uneven notices that are so bad that you won't sign? 3 months is pretty unreasonable whatever.

It's not bullying. The comment about breaking a leg shows you don't quite understand so some more reading would be worthwhile. That's not bullying. I'd add some growsum to your notice period research.

To answer your reasonable questions ...

there are also terms in the contract that means the client can effectively terminate you immediatly. - true, and if they insist on this clause for them, then I will have it added for me too. Again, the aim is to keep the terms and clauses in the contract equal. Agree, no timesheet = no pay ... but we should both have that option at our disposal and the term should be in the contract.

The 3 months is unreasonable, but I've seen it a few times and i've had it changed. What the companies are trying to do is tie you in so you can't leave (or are scared to leave within the 3 month period) but they have their own 5 day notice. They want the power, but I won't allow that. If a company is thinking like that before i've even joined then I wonder how trustworthy they are.

I've studied some contract law, so I do understand a bit although I'm not a legal eagle (studied it as part of my CIMA studies). i understand enough to know that i want equal power terms - my skills are in demand so I feel I can request this in a contract. I will not allow my company to have unequal terms via a service contract with a client that is my (or my company's) detriment. Of course contracts don't have to be 'fair', but if you have the power to make them fair rather than be railroaded then i would advise you should.

psychocandy
2nd January 2017, 11:21
Not to start an argument with you, as you're clearly the font of all knowledge and always right, but what you say is absolute tosh, IR35 or not. The clue is in the word contract; the terms contained are enforceable albeit at a cost, should either party want to go to court. I make sure that notice periods are always equal for both me and the client - twice I've been asked to sign contracts where the client can give me 5 days notice, and me 3 months. Both times I've had the contracts changed as I refuse to sign unequal contracts.

But hey, you know best. Please don't feel the need to try and argue back NLUK, and bully your views on others as you always do, as I can see all you ever want to do is be a keyboard warrior and to be honest, I can't be @rsed to respond to any reply. Bullies are best ignored :popcorn:

You can "try" but there are clients out there who will not give the contractor a notice period. Ever. So they'll just say no thanks.

Bee
2nd January 2017, 16:18
No matter what you guys are saying about the notice period, it's always useful to have it in the contract.

psychocandy
6th January 2017, 09:02
Well its not going so well. Chased the local guy and looks like head office are dragging this one out.

I get the feeling they're thinking if they dont say anything either way it'll go away. Obviously, if they tell me no they know Im not going to be overjoyed.

So, mid Jan is missed already I think. Its going to come to a point where new client is going to give me a drop dead latest date methinks.

Which gives me a bit of a dilema. Don't really want to lose the new gig. Normally I'd just think oh well I'll have to stay but with the family aspect.

OK. So options.....

Sub - probably won't work.

MOO - Always confused about this one. Understand a client can, at any point, tell me theres no work please dont come in. But can I do the same? i.e. say not available for last 5 weeks.

I'd rather not do this to be honest, but there we go. Aware also that its going to upset both the client (well head office at least) as well as the agency and possibly Im going to have the refusal to pay last invoice game.

Even in the unlikely event that the agency sues me, am I right they can only claim actual losses (i.e. their margin) and they must mitigate this? We're probably talking about 2 days billing then for 25 days lost margin.

northernladuk
6th January 2017, 09:10
MOO - Always confused about this one. Understand a client can, at any point, tell me theres no work please dont come in. But can I do the same? i.e. say not available for last 5 weeks.
.

That's not MoO. Try doing a search.

Willapp
6th January 2017, 09:33
That's not MoO. Try doing a search.

Yeah MOO is about not being obliged to do other work than stated in your contract. If your contract is to deliver project X, then you are obliged to do that to the best of your ability. They can't come to you and say, actually you also need to deliver project Y - you can say no, it's not in my contract. That's MOO.

northernladuk
6th January 2017, 10:09
Understand a client can, at any point, tell me theres no work please dont come in. But can I do the same? i.e. say not available for last 5 weeks.
.

You already do the same. You are unavailable for holidays and the like aren't you?
There is a massive difference between your examples. One is business driven decision which is fundamentally how we work and core to your IR35 defence. The other is just plain breach.

jamesbrown
6th January 2017, 10:26
Sub - probably won't work.

Why? You don't have an unfettered RoS? If so, that's your fault. If you had one, the client would need to honour it or you'd have grounds for termination.

It's funny how flies always find a turd. :D