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LondonManc
22nd February 2017, 12:13
Oops

PSCs to abandon NHS IT project over IR35 changes :: Contractor UK (http://www.contractoruk.com/news/0012910pscs_abandon_nhs_it_project_over_ir35_chang es.html?utm_source=NL&utm_medium=News&utm_campaign=IR35)

Patrick@Intouch
22nd February 2017, 12:29
I would expect this to be one of many such stories in the coming weeks.

Part of the problem is that HMRC have given end clients little or no time to prepare for and implement these changes and very good reason to be nervous about getting it wrong.

The knee jerk reaction then is to say "all PSC's are inside" and for all PSC's to say "no thank you".

Return to your seats, fasten belts and ensure seat backs are in their upright position with trays secured - turbulence ahead!

sal
22nd February 2017, 12:42
“XP is no longer stable and no longer supported by Microsoft,” said a techie familiar with the trust’s project.

If it's an exact quote, NHS contractors at their best...


Rather than stay and accept the trust’s decision, or avoid it but pay more tax by becoming PAYE umbrella staff, the 30 are set to move as one team to an end-user outside of the rules.

What are the chances of this to happen?

northernladuk
22nd February 2017, 12:48
Something just doesn't seem right about that article. Can't put my finger on what.

LondonManc
22nd February 2017, 12:49
If it's an exact quote, NHS contractors at their best...
Explains why they're public sector. :laugh



What are the chances of this to happen?

Lala Land recruiting are they?

5000
22nd February 2017, 13:00
Something just doesn't seem right about that article. Can't put my finger on what.

Having seen the letter referenced by the cited MOD article I can confidently say that it had nothing to do with the upcoming changes. It was almost identicle to a 2016 letter.

MPwannadecentincome
22nd February 2017, 13:19
“Our third line IT support [department] are [facing] losing 60 per cent of their workforce who are contractors,” a GSTT insider claimed.

What puzzles me is how 3rd line IT support is not BoS & BAU and not subject to SDC surely they are in IR35 already regardless of new rules?

northernladuk
22nd February 2017, 13:20
What puzzles me is how 3rd line IT support is not BoS & BAU and not subject to SDC surely they are in IR35 already regardless of new rules?

Exactly this......

LondonManc
22nd February 2017, 13:23
What puzzles me is how 3rd line IT support is not BoS & BAU and not subject to SDC surely they are in IR35 already regardless of new rules?

Why are you puzzled? The contractor will have asked the agent for an IR35-friendly contract because that's what they'll have been told to ask for by a friend who's been doing it for years. More Head-in-Sand than Bum-on-Seat and they are the ones who should be running for cover.

This whole thing is designed to throw these types of contractors under a bus and rightly so - they've been falsely declaring themselves as outside. While Hector isn't popular at the moment, the contracting population isn't helping itself.

malvolio
22nd February 2017, 13:32
I do wish people would stop with the lazy generalisations. You haven't considered the possibility that the client needs a fluid resource for a variable workload during a period of major change and has recruited contractors to fill the gaps? Or that those contractors are sufficiently skilled - let's face it, 3rd line support are rarely dummies in any establishment - to decide how best to fix whatever it is that's gone wrong?

You are in or out of IR35 based on the terms of your engagement and working practices. BaU does not mean you are automatically caught: arguably any coder and BA is far more likely to be caught since they will have direction and supervision in their day-to-day work.

sal
22nd February 2017, 13:43
What puzzles me is how 3rd line IT support is not BoS & BAU and not subject to SDC surely they are in IR35 already regardless of new rules?

What about MoO? Wasn't the lack of it enough to be outside IR35 or did i miss something?

LondonManc
22nd February 2017, 13:47
I do wish people would stop with the lazy generalisations. You haven't considered the possibility that the client needs a fluid resource for a variable workload during a period of major change and has recruited contractors to fill the gaps? Or that those contractors are sufficiently skilled - let's face it, 3rd line support are rarely dummies in any establishment - to decide how best to fix whatever it is that's gone wrong?

You are in or out of IR35 based on the terms of your engagement and working practices. BaU does not mean you are automatically caught: arguably any coder and BA is far more likely to be caught since they will have direction and supervision in their day-to-day work.

Nobody is doubting their ability; but the D&C element is there for sure - they're in a reactive role with work given to them. Supervision could be the key to their inside nature and as for working practices, I can imagine that getting interesting. Similarly you can imagine the justification from them - "we're third line, so we're specialists, so we're outside of SDC and therefore outside IR35". Nobody's going to question it because nobody wants to be inside IR35.

mnctraining
22nd February 2017, 13:51
Not sure I agree with this

"The agent said that ‘going brolly’ not only heads off IR35 from April 6th, but also claimed that it heads off HMRC investigating “your [IR35] status for periods worked prior to April 6th.”

Perhaps I've kept myself outside IR35 too long, but I've always seen Umbrellas as accepting your role is caught inside and pursuing the option that seems best financially to you personally (and if you believe the claims of keeping 60/70/80% of your "salary")

As for going umbrella and never having to worry about retrospective, I don't see that ever goes away, threat is always there whilst IR35 is around, HMRC can challenge any contract you have worked on in the past, regardless of what you declared the status to be. How confident you are that your due diligence protects you is another matter

northernladuk
22nd February 2017, 13:55
What about MoO? Wasn't the lack of it enough to be outside IR35 or did i miss something?

MoO is about offering work outside the current scope agreed. That doesn't really kick in unless they are asked to do some stuff that's not agreed or after the engagement so not that much of an issue in an ongoing gig. It does however beg the question about a BAU 3rd line persons schedule of work. I can't imagine it looks like anything more than a job specification and not a detailed assignment which is part of the reason people make blanket assumptions about this type of role.

northernladuk
22nd February 2017, 14:01
Couple of other things that just don't ring right with me in the article are...


‘None of us are contemplating staying’

I find this hard to believe looking at my ex client and the number of people on here that look like they are going to stay. Same is always said with client rate cuts and next to no one leaves.


Rather than stay and accept the trust’s decision, or avoid it but pay more tax by becoming PAYE umbrella staff, the 30 are set to move as one team to an end-user outside of the rules.

I don't like this. It raises so many questions. To where? A supply just offering the same people back to do the same roles? And they are 100% sure they are outside the rules? And 30 contractors, all agreed. That I'd like to see. Somethings not right there.


However, “none of us are contemplating staying” one PSC on the project said, even referring to the project’s senior team leaders, all of whom are understood to operate via their own PSC.

I bet the atmosphere on site is bloody awful right now lol with all this coming out in the open.


Firstly, it curtailed the existing contracts some of its PSCs were on from a few months beyond the rules’ commencement date (April 6th), to just before -- March 31st.

Isn't that a good thing for the contractors?

malvolio
22nd February 2017, 14:05
Nobody is doubting their ability; but the D&C element is there for sure - they're in a reactive role with work given to them. Supervision could be the key to their inside nature and as for working practices, I can imagine that getting interesting. Similarly you can imagine the justification from them - "we're third line, so we're specialists, so we're outside of SDC and therefore outside IR35". Nobody's going to question it because nobody wants to be inside IR35.

so the difference is work being given to them, is it? Hmmm...

Client to 3rd line support - the DBAs report a database won't open on the main server, no idea why, go get it back up.

Client to coder - we need an app to combine these datasets and present it graphically, using our usual coding standards.


Nope, can't see a difference myself. :igmc:

LondonManc
22nd February 2017, 14:06
I find this hard to believe looking at my ex client and the number of people on here that look like they are going to stay. Same is always said with client rate cuts and next to no one leaves.
Difference this time is that you're not looking at dropping from £600 p/d to £540 p/d and still outside IR35; you're looking at being on £600 p/d, losing expenses, massive tax bill and huge potential of retro-grab.


I don't like this. It raises so many questions. To where? A supply just offering the same people back to do the same roles? And they are 100% sure they are outside the rules? And 30 contractors, all agreed. That I'd like to see. Somethings not right there.
Agreed; this sounds far more like wishful thinking on their part.


Isn't that a good thing for the contractors?
Depends when payment is made. Oops. :eek:

LondonManc
22nd February 2017, 14:07
so the difference is work being given to them, is it? Hmmm...

Client to 3rd line support - the DBAs report a database won't open on the main server, no idea why, go get it back up.

Client to coder - we need an app to combine these datasets and present it graphically, using our usual coding standards.


Nope, can't see a difference myself. :igmc:

Coders can go inside too. F*** 'em :D

northernladuk
22nd February 2017, 14:09
Difference this time is that you're not looking at dropping from £600 p/d to £540 p/d and still outside IR35; you're looking at being on £600 p/d, losing expenses, massive tax bill and huge potential of retro-grab.

Well yes, poor example but I am certainly not seeing enough teams of 30 leaving and blanket resignations to for that title to hold true. The maybe be 'contemplating'. Reality?

MPwannadecentincome
22nd February 2017, 14:10
I do wish people would stop with the lazy generalisations. You haven't considered the possibility that the client needs a fluid resource for a variable workload during a period of major change and has recruited contractors to fill the gaps? Or that those contractors are sufficiently skilled - let's face it, 3rd line support are rarely dummies in any establishment - to decide how best to fix whatever it is that's gone wrong?

You are in or out of IR35 based on the terms of your engagement and working practices. BaU does not mean you are automatically caught: arguably any coder and BA is far more likely to be caught since they will have direction and supervision in their day-to-day work.

Would the third line support be obligated to take on or turn down work? Would they be able to claim they are not under SDC when they have to be available at certain times of the day and taking calls or tickets as they come?

LondonManc
22nd February 2017, 14:10
Well yes, poor example but I am certainly not seeing enough teams of 30 leaving and blanket resignations to for that title to hold true. The maybe be 'contemplating'. Reality?

Full teams have walked elsewhere.

I certainly couldn't go inside IR35 and work in London without WFH at least 3 days a week on PS rates.

MPwannadecentincome
22nd February 2017, 14:17
so the difference is work being given to them, is it? Hmmm...

Client to 3rd line support - the DBAs report a database won't open on the main server, no idea why, go get it back up.

Client to coder - we need an app to combine these datasets and present it graphically, using our usual coding standards.


Nope, can't see a difference myself. :igmc:

Well the difference could be....

third line support - available at desk during strict times ready to respond to such a request

coder - ok will do that at a time and place of my choosing as long as I deliver to the requirements and standards given and within an agreed timescale

all depending on the actual working practises of course.

sal
22nd February 2017, 14:34
Full teams have walked elsewhere.

I certainly couldn't go inside IR35 and work in London without WFH at least 3 days a week on PS rates.

The "problem" here is that in most cases out of 30 contractors team (in NHS of all places):

1) Some are already using Umbrella - so nothing changes for them
2) Some are local with minimal travel & accommodation expenses, so they might be happy to stay with some 20% rate increase
3) Some are perfectly aware that they are unemployable by anything but NHS and the like and will suck it up and stay

Chances of none of the above to be true are slim to none

malvolio
22nd February 2017, 14:47
Would the third line support be obligated to take on or turn down work? Would they be able to claim they are not under SDC when they have to be available at certain times of the day and taking calls or tickets as they come?
Would a programmer, a DBA, a BA, a PM...?

Would a permie be subject to the same restrictions for the same reasons...?

I really don't see your point. There are no simple lines on one side of which you are in and the other you are out.

LondonManc
22nd February 2017, 15:00
The "problem" here is that in most cases out of 30 contractors team (in NHS of all places):

1) Some are already using Umbrella - so nothing changes for them
2) Some are local with minimal travel & accommodation expenses, so they might be happy to stay with some 20% rate increase
3) Some are perfectly aware that they are unemployable by anything but NHS and the like and will suck it up and stay

Chances of none of the above to be true are slim to none

I don't doubt it. Hope they've got deep pockets come the retro-grab.

SueEllen
22nd February 2017, 15:15
Would the third line support be obligated to take on or turn down work? Would they be able to claim they are not under SDC when they have to be available at certain times of the day and taking calls or tickets as they come?

It depends on the company.

I did 3rd line support briefly as a permie.

I could choose the hours I worked within reason - the employer had core hours you had to be there for. 1st and even 2nd line had to work shifts to cover 24 hours.

I had to fix things asap but the SLA I worked to wasn't clear. (I was moved because I worked too fast.)

I could either respond to a ticket with "This will be fixed in release xxx" and close it, OR refer the ticket to someone else e.g. if it was something I didn't deal with.

I didn't talk on the phone. I either found people in the building or emailed people.

northernladuk
22nd February 2017, 15:27
I had to fix things asap but the SLA I worked to wasn't clear. (I was moved because I worked too fast.) .

I remember moving a lady off 3rd line once. She was utter crap. One of those people that got promoted just to move her on because sacking her was too difficult. Shook her hand, congratulated her telling her she worked too fast so was an ideal candidate for the new role.

Monday morning, no crap employee to deal with. Happy days.....

SueEllen
22nd February 2017, 15:44
I remember moving a lady off 3rd line once. She was utter crap. One of those people that got promoted just to move her on because sacking her was too difficult. Shook her hand, congratulated her telling her she worked too fast so was an ideal candidate for the new role.

Monday morning, no crap employee to deal with. Happy days.....

I was only with that company for 4 months. I left because they had a big meeting to say they had funding for another 3 months... :eek:

That was the company that paid me extra holiday and didn't want it back, and then went in to administration while I was in my first contract.

Incidentally in my first contract they made 2 permies redundant.

RonBW
22nd February 2017, 16:27
Part of the problem is that HMRC have given end clients little or no time to prepare for and implement these changes and very good reason to be nervous about getting it wrong.

Part of the problem is that HMT don't care - the budget for each department is fixed so if they have to increase rates then it's not a problem that HMT / HMRC have to deal with.

The moment this raises £1 in additional tax (regardless of the other costs elsewhere), this will be hailed as a success.

DotasScandal
22nd February 2017, 16:47
This whole thing is designed to throw these types of contractors under a bus and rightly so

Welcome to CUK, where contractors revel in the misfortunes of other contractors at the hand of the HMRC....

eek
22nd February 2017, 16:54
Welcome to CUK, where contractors revel in the misfortunes of other contractors at the hand of the HMRC....

Not quite - its where contractors have discovered that a lot of people are taking the mickey and are happy to see some of them be chucked overboard...

LondonManc
22nd February 2017, 16:55
Welcome to CUK, where contractors revel in the misfortunes of other contractors at the hand of the HMRC....

Not at all. If they're dodging taxes by making false declarations, then I think it's only right that we're thoroughly piddled off with them. They've brought these changes on all of us.

DotasScandal
22nd February 2017, 17:14
Not at all. If they're dodging taxes by making false declarations, then I think it's only right that we're thoroughly piddled off with them. They've brought these changes on all of us.

So HMRC enacts collective punishment because they can't be arsed to police a flawed system of their own making, and you're not piddled off at HMRC, but at your fellow contractors.

Ok.

sal
23rd February 2017, 09:50
So HMRC enacts collective punishment because they can't be arsed to police a flawed system of their own making, and you're not piddled off at HMRC, but at your fellow contractors.

Ok.

What made you think we are not piddled off at HMRC?

PurpleGorilla
23rd February 2017, 09:57
"Thirty PSC contactors will abandon an overrun £16.5million health service IT project..."

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0535/6917/products/consultingdemotivator.jpeg?v=1416776147

northernladuk
23rd February 2017, 10:02
I wonder if any of 'The 30' have thought to change their LinkedIn profiles so can't be easily identified?

RonBW
23rd February 2017, 10:45
I wonder if any of 'The 30' have thought to change their LinkedIn profiles so can't be easily identified?

In an ideal world, the thirty would be talking to the press and saying "yes, I was one of those people, this is how it would affect my business, this is a damaging idea, and this is a practical example of how the UK economy will be damaged by ill-thought out policy such as this".

Or at least one of them would.

LondonManc
23rd February 2017, 10:54
So HMRC enacts collective punishment because they can't be arsed to police a flawed system of their own making, and you're not piddled off at HMRC, but at your fellow contractors.

Ok.

At what point have I said HMRC aren't a problem?

That said, my view of them is probably less tainted than yours, having not gone down the schemes route. I am still of the opinion, though, that I can spend my taxes in a more meaningful way than HMG could :)

The tax, national health and benefits systems all need ripping up and starting again; The NHS was relevant back in the day when we were rebuilding after a war. The tax and benefits systems were put in place back when it was mostly just men that worked - amendments have been like adding more wallpaper to a room without stripping off the old stuff first.

The biggest problem is the lack of tax payers - by that, I mean the number of people working who aren't paying tax for various legal and illegal reasons.

Legal problem:
Four people on zero hour contracts doing 8-10 hours a week each instead of one person working; all are getting top ups and benefits but all are regarded as not unemployed so the numbers look better; the ultimate in massaging the figures to make the graphs look far better than the actual true numbers.

Illegal problem:
Cash in hand workers at takeaways, etc. claiming full JSA benefits, etc.

The problem with the latter is the effort involved for the reward on offer, so the easier option is to keep on cranking the tax up for those of us that are in the tax system already.

Semtex
23rd February 2017, 11:01
At what point have I said HMRC aren't a problem?

That said, my view of them is probably less tainted than yours, having not gone down the schemes route. I am still of the opinion, though, that I can spend my taxes in a more meaningful way than HMG could :)

The tax, national health and benefits systems all need ripping up and starting again; The NHS was relevant back in the day when we were rebuilding after a war. The tax and benefits systems were put in place back when it was mostly just men that worked - amendments have been like adding more wallpaper to a room without stripping off the old stuff first.

The biggest problem is the lack of tax payers - by that, I mean the number of people working who aren't paying tax for various legal and illegal reasons.

Legal problem:
Four people on zero hour contracts doing 8-10 hours a week each instead of one person working; all are getting top ups and benefits but all are regarded as not unemployed so the numbers look better; the ultimate in massaging the figures to make the graphs look far better than the actual true numbers.

Illegal problem:
Cash in hand workers at takeaways, etc. claiming full JSA benefits, etc.

The problem with the latter is the effort involved for the reward on offer, so the easier option is to keep on cranking the tax up for those of us that are in the tax system already.

what a croc

northernladuk
23rd February 2017, 11:06
What a crock

FTFY

SlipTheJab
23rd February 2017, 11:13
what a croc

Bit harsh...

MrMarkyMark
23rd February 2017, 11:14
Bit harsh...

So, you don't understand how to spell c*ck either :laugh

LondonManc
23rd February 2017, 11:17
Bit harsh...

Water off a duck's back. He's usually moaning about the brutal honesty of NLUK recommending seeking an accountant's advice or telling us all that he's leaving the PS in March and making sure he's not paid in April. :rollin:

I wouldn't expect him to disagree with a system that he's balls deep in.

Semtex
23rd February 2017, 12:30
Water off a duck's back. He's usually moaning about the brutal honesty of NLUK recommending seeking an accountant's advice or telling us all that he's leaving the PS in March and making sure he's not paid in April. :rollin:

I wouldn't expect him to disagree with a system that he's balls deep in.

Sorry son you don't know anything about my Contracting history going back to 1999.

This is yet another of your I am better than you posts. boring..

offer advice rather than bigging yourself up.

LondonManc
23rd February 2017, 13:57
Sorry son you don't know anything about my Contracting history going back to 1999.

This is yet another of your I am better than you posts. boring..

offer advice rather than bigging yourself up.

I don't want to either. HMRC might though. :D

DotasScandal
23rd February 2017, 13:59
At what point have I said HMRC aren't a problem?

That said, my view of them is probably less tainted than yours, having not gone down the schemes route. I am still of the opinion, though, that I can spend my taxes in a more meaningful way than HMG could :)

The tax, national health and benefits systems all need ripping up and starting again; The NHS was relevant back in the day when we were rebuilding after a war. The tax and benefits systems were put in place back when it was mostly just men that worked - amendments have been like adding more wallpaper to a room without stripping off the old stuff first.

The biggest problem is the lack of tax payers - by that, I mean the number of people working who aren't paying tax for various legal and illegal reasons.

Legal problem:
Four people on zero hour contracts doing 8-10 hours a week each instead of one person working; all are getting top ups and benefits but all are regarded as not unemployed so the numbers look better; the ultimate in massaging the figures to make the graphs look far better than the actual true numbers.

Illegal problem:
Cash in hand workers at takeaways, etc. claiming full JSA benefits, etc.

The problem with the latter is the effort involved for the reward on offer, so the easier option is to keep on cranking the tax up for those of us that are in the tax system already.

The biggest problem is an intentionally unintelligible, two-tier tax system with plethora of loopholes reserved for a certain caste, and confiscatory rates for the rest (the judicial system in this country has similar "problems")
All countries have their problems, but there are many that manage to have healthcare and employment systems that are both functional and accessible and intelligible by everyone. Having a f-ed up system like the UK's is not inevitable.
At the end of the day, 99% of folks are interested in exercising their craft in a manner that makes remote economical sense, not "dodging taxes", faking employment, or playing cat and mouse with the local Revenue day in and day out. And as of today, I can't think of any first world country that makes it more difficult than the UK. Hate the game, not the player.

Semtex
23rd February 2017, 14:13
I don't want to either. HMRC might though. :D

This really sums you up.

LondonManc
23rd February 2017, 14:15
This really sums you up.

<emoticon snip>

Tell us again how you're quitting PS next month. Yawn.

Semtex
23rd February 2017, 14:54
Tell us again how you're quitting PS next month. Yawn.

Boring keyboard warrior alert.

Lets agree to ignore each other shall we Rambo?

sal
23rd February 2017, 15:04
And as of today, I can't think of any first world country that makes it more difficult than the UK. Hate the game, not the player.

USA comes to mind, if you are US citizen, even if you have dual citizenship, you owe US income tax regardless of country of residence. Even if you live and work in a tax haven for years, uncle Sam wants his share.

DotasScandal
23rd February 2017, 15:15
USA comes to mind, if you are US citizen, even if you have dual citizenship, you owe US income tax regardless of country of residence. Even if you live and work in a tax haven for years, uncle Sam wants his share.

Which is why quite a few renounce said citizenship. It's an unconventional approach though - only two countries in the world work like this (the other one is Eritrea).
On the plus side, the IRS doesn't use time machines to change laws retrospectively.

LondonManc
23rd February 2017, 15:31
Which is why quite a few renounce said citizenship. It's an unconventional approach though - only two countries in the world work like this (the other one is Eritrea).
On the plus side, the IRS doesn't use time machines to change laws retrospectively.

That's the biggie. That said, the IR35 tests have been a sham and have, and surely you have to admit this, been abused by many - too many have simply declared themselves outside on the needle-in-a-haystack principle in terms of being happy to take their chances.

It's definitely not a one-way street though; HMRC are responsible, the contractors are responsible but the others who are responsible, who are getting away with everything, are the clients. In many cases they are using contractors simply to avoid business NICs, HR red tape and all the related employment paperwork.

Mordac
23rd February 2017, 18:02
Sorry son you don't know anything about my Contracting history going back to 1999.

This is yet another of your I am better than you posts. boring..

offer advice rather than bigging yourself up.

Newbie alert...:igmc:

Sorry, had to chuckle, my contracting history goes back to 1992, but with a brief permie interlude the following year. Didn't like it. :puke:
Doesn't make me any better or wiser than anyone else, but it's fun to stir the pot now and again...:D

SlipTheJab
24th February 2017, 09:36
So, you don't understand how to spell c*ck either :laugh

No but I can spell tw*t :D