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threaded
16th August 2005, 16:56
http://www.thisislondon.com/news/articles/PA_NEWA6796561124176599A00?source=PA%20Feed

"This is another smash and grab raid on the savings of middle England - pensions funds were first, your home is next."

Lucifer Box
16th August 2005, 17:09
It's only "fair" you know. Britain's hard-working families deserve more of your and your elderly granny's wad.

TwoWolves
16th August 2005, 20:01
Well that's typical labour policy.

You struggle to make the mortgage payments after tax for most of your life,
if you leave it to your children after your death there is death duty/capital gains tax
to be paid. Then just when you think you can relax your pension dwindles and
council tax spirals.

Why don't they just put put income tax back to 95% and be more honest about it?

Massive taxes and high oil prices! We're just doing the 70's all over again...

Just without bell-bottoms and "The Carpenters" to cheer us up. :spank:

IR35 Avoider
16th August 2005, 20:56
For the record, I am a Labour-hater, but...

... this is a perfectly sensible way to solve the problem that relatively "rich" people with "small" incomes have paying their property taxes.

Having said that, I would prefer the problem to be solved by competitively priced equity release plans. These would give income for other purposes as well. (If people are struggling to pay their council tax then they are generally hard-up, so could probably use extra income over and above what they need for the council tax.)

vetran
16th August 2005, 21:34
Not sure how much your average pensioner costs the council, they don't tend to litter pavements, drive at high speed, deal crack or use adventure playgrounds.

Stop screwing the hard working, spend less on the lazy buzzards.

Miserable old man
16th August 2005, 22:32
Woe is me!

AtW
16th August 2005, 22:48
What I find interesting in the council tax is that very small sums are spend on police and fire service, while huge chunk is used on feck-knows-what, I don't even know why they separated police/fire from the main sum as it clearly shows something is fishy, ie in Brum mere 100 quid go to police/firemen, and whopping 1000 quid is "other". Surely garbage collection can't possible cost more than police and fire services?!?!

Lucifer Box
16th August 2005, 23:22
What I find interesting in the council tax is that very small sums are spend on police and fire service, while huge chunk is used on feck-knows-what, I don't even know why they separated police/fire from the main sum as it clearly shows something is fishy, ie in Brum mere 100 quid go to police/firemen, and whopping 1000 quid is "other". Surely garbage collection can't possible cost more than police and fire services?!?!
Vote rigging and election fraud on a massive scale costs quite a lot of money you know.

AtW
16th August 2005, 23:29
Vote rigging and election fraud on a massive scale costs quite a lot of money you know.

I don't believe it. Civil service pensions perhaps, but the point is: wtf breakdown huge sum into 10% of defined parts, and leave 90% as "other"? IMO they should breakdown the whole lot so that its clear where the money go to.

PerlOfWisdom
16th August 2005, 23:47
Why don't they sell up and get a house they can afford to service - then they get the benefit of their equity. I hate Labour policies as much as the next sane man, but if you can't afford your bills in your massive house then don't start moaning about it

AtW
16th August 2005, 23:55
but if you can't afford your bills in your massive house then don't start moaning about it

If the bills were unaffordable from day 1 when the house was purchased then I agree with your logic, however if taxation rose sharply then I don't think its right or even fair to make people sell their houses.

Increases in council tax are unfair for all, some get hit more than the other, but in principle the money seem to go feck knows where.

PerlOfWisdom
17th August 2005, 00:43
In the next few years (or maybe decades) energy prices will probably rocket. This also will affect everybody - not just relatively well-off pensioners.

I do agree that Labour governments waste most of the money that they steal from us.

The Lone Gunman
17th August 2005, 07:03
It is just another example of NL mantra.

If they earn and save then milk them for all they are worth.
If they are lazy and feckless give them everything they want.

Socialism....in the main line!

Rebecca Loos
17th August 2005, 07:42
Lots of whingeing on this thread!
What you guys doing about it?

Churchill
17th August 2005, 07:45
Lots of whingeing on this thread!
What you guys doing about it?

Nothing to be done. We just have to pay up!

milanbenes
17th August 2005, 07:54
that's the amazing thing about us Brits, rules regulations whatever, we just take it

the Europeans wouldn't stand for such !

Milan.

zeitghost
17th August 2005, 07:57
Quite a lot of the council tax increase is down to funding those nice retire at 60 inflation linked pensions...

threaded
17th August 2005, 07:59
zeit: Quite correct. They are kicking old people out of their houses so other old people, who just happened to have worked for local government AKA The Party, can have them.

It's only fair.

wendigo100
17th August 2005, 09:28
that's the amazing thing about us Brits, rules regulations whatever, we just take it

the Europeans wouldn't stand for such !
Milan, the Europeans have sleepwalked into a common currency and deeper integration. And the amount of "rules, regulations, whatever" squirting out of the EU puts even our Labour government to shame!

New Labour are still in power here because there is no coherent alternative and they hide the bad news well.

milanbenes
17th August 2005, 09:42
"the Europeans have sleepwalked into a common currency and deeper integration. ",

I think you will find Wendy,

that the majority of Europeans in the EURO zone and more than satisfied with the single currency and the positive effect it has had on their lives, making it easier to travel and to know in an instant if you are being ripped off abroad

integration has enabled easing of intra-EU trade barriers which again is only good for folks in the Euro zone.

Keep your pound, keep feeding the financial institutions who benefit from a separate currency.

The Euro is a rare example of a unified policy which can have positive noticable measureable grass roots effect on the average man !

Milan.

OwlHoot
17th August 2005, 10:10
the majority of Europeans in the EURO zone and more than satisfied with the single currency and the positive effect it has had on their lives, making it easier to travel and to know in an instant if you are being ripped off abroad

Milan, you live in a dream world. The majority of Europeans, certainly in Italy, Germany and France, are anything but happy with the Euro.

And justifying it by a slight easing of travel (within the EU only of course) is practically infantile, like justifying the Nazis because Hitler eased travel by making the trains run on time.

In any case, it doesn't reduce the risks of ripoffs on average, because if you travel outside the EU your currency conversion arithmetic will be rustier, and if you deny anyone would have that problem then you're admitting that currency ripoffs are not a problem anyway. So I have you by the balls either way. :p

milanbenes
17th August 2005, 10:15
ahh Owl,

I see you are agreeing with me that for travel within the Euro zone the single currency provides consumers with retail pricing transparency and for the majority of Europeans within the Eurozone this is a very valid benefit seeing as the majority of them only travel within the Eurozone domestically.

Milan.

Churchill
17th August 2005, 10:18
ahh Owl,

I see you are agreeing with me that for travel within the Euro zone the single currency provides consumers with retail pricing transparency and for the majority of Europeans within the Eurozone this is a very valid benefit seeing as the majority of them only travel within the Eurozone domestically.

Milan.

I'm happy with my pet passport!

Lucifer Box
17th August 2005, 10:25
So should old folks with little cash in the bank but big houses pay less council tax? If so, who volunteers to pay more to compensate?

Lucifer in "Devil's Advocate" mode.

Dundeegeorge
17th August 2005, 10:28
basing the amount of local-tax people pay on, say, the number of adults in a house, as more people use up more local resources, and we could call it, say, poll-tax.
Oh no sorry, that's way too fair, and was thrown out before.

milanbenes
17th August 2005, 10:31
why not have a standard rate for a house of x

and add another tax y onto the earnings of all workers

that way pensioners are ok

doley's don't pay council tax anyway so they're not bothered

and everybody is happy

Milan.

threaded
17th August 2005, 10:44
Lucifer, I like that devils advocate game: why not infact just reduce everyones council tax by abandoning the civils servants pensions linkage.

Just about everyone else in the UK has had to bend over and take it with the Gay Gordons pensions grab, why should not the civil service feel what it is like?

After all, it is only fair.

AtW
17th August 2005, 10:44
basing the amount of local-tax people pay on, say, the number of adults in a house, as more people use up more local resources, and we could call it, say, poll-tax.

I have not experienced poll tax, but it sounded pretty darn logical and fair -- currently single person living in the house in Brum gets only 25% discount from main rate, while amount of garbage, police and firemen work surely is nowhere as near as family of 4 living in the same house.

threaded
17th August 2005, 10:46
AtW: Especially if them 4 are chavs... :bluelight

Churchill
17th August 2005, 10:48
AtW: Especially if them 4 are chavs... :bluelight

those? Surely.

zeitghost
17th August 2005, 11:15
Aaaaaaaaah!

The poll tax.

That was a real riot.

zeitghost
17th August 2005, 11:16
Particularly since everyone over 18 had to pay it...

AtW
17th August 2005, 11:17
Particularly since everyone over 18 had to pay it...

Does not sound unreasonable to me. What were the amounts and what was before poll tax?

threaded
17th August 2005, 11:22
AtW: The problem was that Maggie was coming to the end of her premiership and the lefties grabbed onto the "community charge" renaming it "poll tax" as a way to oust her.

zeitghost
17th August 2005, 11:27
I seem to remember it was about £250 per head per annum (or anum) around here.

Don't know what the rates were just prior to that though, since I wasn't paying them at the time.

Perhaps I shall investigate further...

zeitghost
17th August 2005, 11:28
Apparently students don't pay council tax... is that right?

AtW
17th August 2005, 11:46
Apparently students don't pay council tax... is that right?

Only if all adults in the house are students -- at least this was the case a few years ago, don't think they relaxed it even though I think I heard this was done in London.

hyperD
17th August 2005, 16:34
Looking at the breakdown of my council tax, the biggest offender is:

Housing Benefits Granted

swiftly followed by

Council Tax Benefits Granted.

A total of 40% of the council capital budget and the items that have experienced the biggest increase over the last few years. Looking at the increase in the tribes of pikeys and chavs that have been shoehorned in, I can guess why these figures will grow at an exponential rate.

And the council blame the rises on the government not increasing the spending allowance enough.

It's obvious to those, without a giro and a pregnant 'ho' called Chardonay [sic], that this is unsustainable.

TwoWolves
17th August 2005, 16:43
This mess is the result of an overly
zealous welfare state. By over-taxing
the middle-classes they are having
smaller families while those on benefit
are encouraged to continue to have
large families. The children of which
tend more to end up in the same
state dependent position.

Its basic social/economic logic really
and in the end the country will be full
of unemployable under-class.

PRC1964
17th August 2005, 16:45
Not that I read the Sun, but they carried this story:

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2005380134,00.html

The best bit is:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
LOTTO chiefs awarded £50,000 to promote ‘gipsy culture’ in Hampshire schools — after snubbing Falklands heroes who need a new refuge.

The county council say their scheme is an “opportunity to highlight the many positive aspects of the gipsy community”.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Given that the lottery normally only fund part of these kind of schemes, we can assume that the rest is funded from the council tax.

Glad I don't live in Hampshire.