Educating your "line manager"

[Butcheroo]

I am luckily leaving my current contract next week as the line manager has been a contractors nightmare.

I had a lovely ir35 contract written with meetings with the agency to discuss working practice , all good I thought. Plus this place has hundreds of contractors.

Then my boss, the cow has tried to stitch me up for ir35 constantly. She tries to always tell me the hours to work , where to work by even denying me working from home, we disagree a lot lol

Worst one was when I told her I was off for a week she said no you are a temp and get last dibs, check with the permies first

I of course refused and said I would provide a substitute as per my contract which of course they refused.

So if hmrc ever interviewed her I would be screwed. I am going to make sure I speak direct to who I am working with/for on next contract to educate then on my terms.

Anyone had any luck doing this kind of thing ?

[kingcook]

I've never been this unlucky, but how about you ask her to read the contract that she (or someone else at client co) signed?

[Gentile]

I am luckily leaving my current contract next week as the line manager has been a contractors nightmare.

I had a lovely ir35 contract written with meetings with the agency to discuss working practice , all good I thought. Plus this place has hundreds of contractors.

Then my boss, the cow has tried to stitch me up for ir35 constantly. She tries to always tell me the hours to work , where to work by even denying me working from home, we disagree a lot lol

Worst one was when I told her I was off for a week she said no you are a temp and get last dibs, check with the permies first

I of course refused and said I would provide a substitute as per my contract which of course they refused.

So if hmrc ever interviewed her I would be screwed. I am going to make sure I speak direct to who I am working with/for on next contract to educate then on my terms.

Anyone had any luck doing this kind of thing ?

If you think this person is your boss, you've got bigger problems when it comes to IR35 compliance than a declined inappropriate substitute or an inconvenient break in a contract would otherwise represent.

[northernladuk]

If you think this person is your boss, you've got bigger problems when it comes to IR35 compliance than a declined inappropriate substitute or an inconvenient break in a contract would otherwise represent.

Got it in one. I did bang on to this poster about acting like a business in his other thread and he didn't get it... still doesn't it seems.

[northernladuk]

I am luckily leaving my current contract next week as the client manager has been a contractors nightmare.

FTFY

I had a lovely ir35 contract written with meetings with the agency to discuss working practice , all good I thought. Plus this place has hundreds of contractors.

How does your agent know what the working practices are? This should have been your first warning sign. Did you have QDOS check it as well?

Then my boss, the cow has tried to stitch me up for ir35 constantly. She tries to always tell me the hours to work , where to work by even denying me working from home, we disagree a lot lol

Worst one was when I told her I was off for a week she said no you are a temp and get last dibs, check with the permies first

I of course refused and said I would provide a substitute as per my contract which of course they refused.

So if hmrc ever interviewed her I would be screwed. I am going to make sure I speak direct to who I am working with/for on next contract to educate then on my terms.

Anyone had any luck doing this kind of thing ?

I would argue she wasn't trying to stitch you up. She is just doing what she thinks was right, the fact she wanted a perm and you are a contractor isn't really her problem. She wants someone to do as she says whatever you are so the position was for a contractor inside IR35. It's not the end of the world, just not as cost effective as an outside one for the poor contractor.

I don't think you can educate a manager. They want something and have an expectation what they will do with that person. If it is to use them like a permie you have to accept the role is inside. If they are clued up or willing to understand your position they the role is outside. It can't be easy trying to understand. My very first gig was working for a contractor and he was worse at dictating than the permies, thank god I was with an umbrella for that one. Thought he might understand at least.

You could try getting a letter of confirmation signed when you start. More information here...

Letter of engagement: How a confirmation letter can help beat IR35 :: Contractor UK

If you had her sign that when you started what she actually said to you could be arguable I guess.

[SueEllen]

Then my boss, the cow has tried to stitch me up for ir35 constantly. She tries to always tell me the hours to work , where to work by even denying me working from home, we disagree a lot lol

Worst one was when I told her I was off for a week she said no you are a temp and get last dibs, check with the permies first

1: She ain't your boss.
2: As a business you should have worked out hours that mean you can keep a good client relationship, and worked those hours.
3: Your client can refuse to allow you to work with their material of their site due to security risks.
4: As a business you should have looked at the project plan to see if there were issues with your company not providing their services for a short time period.

My point is if you don't act like a business from the beginning then your client will not see you like one and throwing your toys out of the pram later isn't going to help.

[Butcheroo]

Educating your "line manager"

I totally agree with the boss thing. No matter who you are you report to someone for progress or updates. Boss or PM or whoever

Unfortunately on this contract I have not been on a named project the whole time. It was a group of projects and I did tell this boss that the project plan would show me bit there.

I was just using this as an example that there are still some managers etc who have no idea what a contractor is supposed to be. Hence why I declined an extension only today.

Never again will I work like that.

Has anyone actually had to have a word with an authority at a site who tried to manage them.?

[Butcheroo]

FTFY


How does your agent know what the working practices are? This should have been your first warning sign. Did you have QDOS check it as well?



I would argue she wasn't trying to stitch you up. She is just doing what she thinks was right, the fact she wanted a perm and you are a contractor isn't really her problem. She wants someone to do as she says whatever you are so the position was for a contractor inside IR35. It's not the end of the world, just not as cost effective as an outside one for the poor contractor.

I don't think you can educate a manager. They want something and have an expectation what they will do with that person. If it is to use them like a permie you have to accept the role is inside. If they are clued up or willing to understand your position they the role is outside. It can't be easy trying to understand. My very first gig was working for a contractor and he was worse at dictating than the permies, thank god I was with an umbrella for that one. Thought he might understand at least.

You could try getting a letter of confirmation signed when you start. More information here...

Letter of engagement: How a confirmation letter can help beat IR35 :: Contractor UK

If you had her sign that when you started what she actually said to you could be arguable I guess.

thanks for the links, good tips.

I like many others have been under the false impression for years that a ir35 compliant contract was all I needed to have. If I am honest then i have many times been treated like one of the team and I have worked for many service providers like Dell, HP and Fujitsu where I was given different projects to work on as they came in. I can see now that is a massive no no.

Problem is if I insist on everything you say I probably rule out half of my market especially service providers, how many actual contractors never have someone you have to report progress to like a Line manager or have to doing a fixed piece of work and nothing else whilst never stating how long you need to work every day.

I think every contract I have ever had has stated a minimum number of working hours per day or week, everyone I know has this type of thing in their contract.

I just need to sharpen up my business working practice to maintain my business state and hope for the best I never get investigated.

I assume some of my previous contracts would fall inside, I dread to think of the bill I would get.

I wonder how they fine you and how they expect it back.

Fingers crossed

[malvolio]

thanks for the links, good tips.

I like many others have been under the false impression for years that a ir35 compliant contract was all I needed to have. If I am honest then i have many times been treated like one of the team and I have worked for many service providers like Dell, HP and Fujitsu where I was given different projects to work on as they came in. I can see now that is a massive no no.

Problem is if I insist on everything you say I probably rule out half of my market especially service providers, how many actual contractors never have someone you have to report progress to like a Line manager or have to doing a fixed piece of work and nothing else whilst never stating how long you need to work every day.

I think every contract I have ever had has stated a minimum number of working hours per day or week, everyone I know has this type of thing in their contract.

I just need to sharpen up my business working practice to maintain my business state and hope for the best I never get investigated.

I assume some of my previous contracts would fall inside, I dread to think of the bill I would get.

I wonder how they fine you and how they expect it back.

Fingers crossed

The Dragonfly case confirmed it, but it was always the case that the working practices and the contract had ot be aligned. Why do you think they are so complicated?

Getting a usable Confirnmation of Arrangements letter is difficult, since most managers see it as subverting the actual contract. If you do get one, it is a long way from being a silver bullet.

You are there to deliver what they need delivering, ensuring what they need is covered in the schedule to your contract and not doing anything else without mutual agreement and an amended/additional schedule. That does not extend to buggering up their overall project plan.

Ditto working hours: you are the professional, you do nothing to cause them problems; it's not what you are there for.

Ditto attitude; you want to be a business you behave like one (or did someone already say that)

"Fingers crossed" is a f***ing awful way to do your job.

HTH. Probably doesn't.

[Mephisto]

The reality has become such that things like Line Managers, Team Leaders etc. are delegated this phantom authority over you by someone else and don't get it when you attempt to educate them otherwise (or ignore them).

What has happened to Contractors being nothing more than a few lines of deliverables in a project plan? Where has all this IR35 endangering tulip appeared from?

Are things this bad over in the real side of contracting i.e. techies and uber geeks or is it just us pen pushers?

Worrying times...