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View Full Version : Ban nasty accountants



kingcook
26th April 2013, 07:47
Government wants to ban nasty accountants who use loopholes to avoid paying tax.

BBC News - Ban 'insider' tax accountants from government - MPs (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-22296769)

cojak
26th April 2013, 07:51
Yeah, watch out Kate C - they've got you in their sights! :happy

eek
26th April 2013, 08:22
Its the wrong approach. This is one thing Australia has right:-

1) A scheme has to be checked and approved before it can be used otherwise its not valid and standard tax is due.
2) there is nothing to stop the government changing the law to make the scheme invalid once its started running.

Implement that and while people will complain few will be able to do much about it.

vetran
26th April 2013, 08:47
Its the wrong approach. This is one thing Australia has right:-

1) A scheme has to be paid to be checked and approved before it can be used & Annually and changes announced 18mo 2 years advance otherwise its not valid and standard tax is due.

Implement that and while people will complain few will be able to do much about it.

no retrospective tax

but yes agree,

minestrone
26th April 2013, 08:51
They run a system so feckin terrible and needlessly complicated that they have to use outside agencies to manage it as the staff are so utterly useless. Now the problems seem to be the fault of the outside accountants who presumably work to instruction.

They have some cheek constantly telling us that tax does not have to be taxing.

eek
26th April 2013, 08:51
no retrospective tax

but yes agree,

Thats not retrospective. The rules there are simple:-

approved scheme fine
others pay up the standard rate.

HMRCs current approach with S58 is scandalous. But so is the fact that they are so far behind that the tribunals are still dealing with tax cases from 2003/4.

cojak
26th April 2013, 09:59
Its the wrong approach. This is one thing Australia has right:-

1) A scheme has to be checked and approved before it can be used otherwise its not valid and standard tax is due.
2) there is nothing to stop the government changing the law to make the scheme invalid once its started running.

Implement that and while people will complain few will be able to do much about it.

Exactly. How difficult can it be??

OwlHoot
26th April 2013, 10:53
Its the wrong approach. This is one thing Australia has right:-

1) A scheme has to be checked and approved before it can be used otherwise its not valid and standard tax is due.

2) there is nothing to stop the government changing the law to make the scheme invalid once its started running.

Implement that and while people will complain few will be able to do much about it.

(2) Is fair enough, as long as rules aren't changed retrospectively, but (1) is iniquitous and an affront to personal liberty.

Why should anyone be "checked and approved" when going about their lawful business of minimizing tax obligations within the current rules?

NickFitz
26th April 2013, 11:01
The point is that HMRC is paying these people to come and work with them, and they then use what they've learned to avoid tax. It's a bit like paying somebody to work in your house and them then using what they've learned to burgle you; although of course, unlike burglary, tax avoidance isn't illegal unless it's found to constitute evasion.

Either way, it seems a bit stupid to pay somebody to spend time learning how to rip you off.

eek
26th April 2013, 11:02
(2) Is fair enough, as long as rules aren't changed retrospectively, but (1) is iniquitous and an affront to personal liberty.

Why should anyone be "checked and approved" when going about their lawful business of minimizing tax obligations within the current rules?

Because most tax saving schemes are artificial and wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the purpose of saving tax.

vetran
26th April 2013, 11:02
(2) Is fair enough, as long as rules aren't changed retrospectively, but (1) is iniquitous and an affront to personal liberty.

Why should anyone be "checked and approved" when going about their lawful business of minimizing tax obligations within the current rules?

we are talking about "schemes" not using an ISA or reclaiming expenses.

I'm not sure they should be able make invalid, maybe just wording how about close entry and give notice? You may well have a long term investment in a checked scheme (e.g. investing in an overseas office building programme), next year HMRC decide its 'invalid' and your investment is ruined.

AtW
26th April 2013, 12:17
Make tax advisors jointly and severally liable for any tax that would be due in the event of their schemes "not working" - they would need to maintain sufficient level of insurance to cover any losses.

That should be enough.

eek
26th April 2013, 12:18
Make tax advisors jointly and severally personally liable for any tax that would be due in the event of their schemes "not working" - they would need to maintain sufficient level of insurance to cover any losses.

That should be enough.

Just to be 100% sure I added an additional word. HTH

VectraMan
26th April 2013, 12:26
The point is that HMRC is paying these people to come and work with them, and they then use what they've learned to avoid tax. It's a bit like paying somebody to work in your house and them then using what they've learned to burgle you; although of course, unlike burglary, tax avoidance isn't illegal unless it's found to constitute evasion.

Either way, it seems a bit stupid to pay somebody to spend time learning how to rip you off.

If the tax system were straightforward, there wouldn't be any issue. What you're basically saying is, HMRC should keep the tax system a guarded secret, and certainly not let accountants know how it works in case those accountants should give their clients correct advice.

It's about as intelligent as the argument that not teaching teenagers about sex means they won't be tempted to have it.

AtW
26th April 2013, 13:17
Another thing that can be done is that no firm that gets Govt contracts can provide "tax planning advice" or have any control/benefit in any entities that do so.

It's basically should be choice between making money from taxpayers OR making money from those who want to cheat taxpayers.

amcdonald
26th April 2013, 14:01
Because most tax saving schemes are artificial and wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the purpose of saving tax.

That's it ban personal allowances, they're just an artificial tax saving scheme!

SueEllen
26th April 2013, 14:29
That's it ban personal allowances, they're just an artificial tax saving scheme!

How is having a personal allowance a "scheme"? Explain.

AtW
26th April 2013, 14:42
That's it ban personal allowances, they're just an artificial tax saving scheme!

Are you that stupid that you can't see the difference between intention of Parliament which created personal allowance and artificial tax schemes designed to evade tax on massive scale?

SueEllen
26th April 2013, 14:55
Are you that stupid that you can't see the difference between intention of Parliament which created personal allowance and artificial tax schemes designed to evade tax on massive scale?

You've spoilt it. :tantrum:

I wanted a reply for him.

VectraMan
26th April 2013, 15:56
Are you that stupid that you can't see the difference between intention of Parliament which created personal allowance and artificial tax schemes designed to evade tax on massive scale?

ISAs are entirely artificial and exist for the sole purpose of avoiding tax. You could say the same about pensions; certainly it'd be a lot less attractive to pay into one if you didn't get tax relief. Both of these were created by the government. It was parlimentary intent that led to tax relief on charitable donations, yet we still had headlines about millionaires avoiding tax by giving away their money to charities (possibly the most insane story of all). For that matter, it was parliamentary intent that taxed dividends at a lower rate and let those personal service company scum (who we all know are really employees) get away with paying less tax.

Just saying. Blame the rule makers, not the rule followers.

amcdonald
26th April 2013, 16:00
You've spoilt it. :tantrum:

I wanted a reply for him.

The point being tax avoidance is legal, if you can't see that you're stupid

SueEllen
26th April 2013, 16:14
The point being tax avoidance is legal, if you can't see that you're stupid

I'm aware tax avoidance is legal.

What I wanted you to explain is why a personal allowance is a scheme?

AtW
26th April 2013, 17:13
The point being tax avoidance is legal, if you can't see that you're stupid

I find that a lot of people who talk about "tax avoidance is legal" actually engage in nothing other than tax evasion.

It's just HMRC has no resources or time to pursue them in criminal courts (other than VAT fraudsters). That really needs to change and HMRC should pursue those who created those schemes in the first place - if the scheme is criminal tax evasion then not only the person who used it to benefit from tax should go down, but also the people who created this scheme in the first place, including those QCs who've "approved" the scheme.

tractor
26th April 2013, 20:06
I find that a lot of people who talk about "tax avoidance is legal" actually engage in nothing other than tax evasion.

It's just HMRC has no resources or time to pursue them in criminal courts (other than VAT fraudsters). That really needs to change and HMRC should pursue those who created those schemes in the first place - if the scheme is criminal tax evasion then not only the person who used it to benefit from tax should go down, but also the people who created this scheme in the first place, including those QCs who've "approved" the scheme.

Who, in this context are no different than the guilty big 4 and certainly no different to the senior tax officers (and there are many) who have left HMRC after they have retired with their hefty taxpayer funded pensions to advise in similar capacities.

I wouldn't actually mind being accountable for tax if the simpletons who administer and spend it were at least as accountable :P