Backstops and hard borders

[Old Greg]

Either Barnier or Junker, can't remember which has already stated that there is a workable solution in the case of a no deal exit.

Every lorry that crosses a border carries with a manifest detailing what it is carrying and what the point of destination is. It has to. This manifest is generated at its point of departure electronically, it is held electronically. It is therefore not that difficult to implement cross border tariffs at the point of departure, arrival, or any point in between. This is done currently between the EU and third countries. How the hell do you think the EU trades with the rest of the world. The hard borders that the EU has with the rest of the world I including the border checks that are currently performed between the EU and the UK) is more about checking people that it is about checking goods and services. This isn't rocket science, but it suits to keep stating its impossible and if that is said enough times people will start to believe it, without questioning why, and without you having to put up any evidence to demonstrate why it is impossible.

1 How does that relate to the cross border agri-food supply chains?
2 Have you ever been to the border between an EU country and a non EU / EEA / CH country and seen how much infrastructure there is?

[meridian]

Either Barnier or Junker, can't remember which has already stated that there is a workable solution in the case of a no deal exit.

Doubtful. You need a source to see exactly what they did say. It's likely that you're paraphrasing a third source (Mail? Express?) that has misinterpreted any comments.

Every lorry that crosses a border carries with a manifest detailing what it is carrying and what the point of destination is. It has to. This manifest is generated at its point of departure electronically, it is held electronically. It is therefore not that difficult to implement cross border tariffs at the point of departure, arrival, or any point in between. This is done currently between the EU and third countries. How the hell do you think the EU trades with the rest of the world. The hard borders that the EU has with the rest of the world I including the border checks that are currently performed between the EU and the UK) is more about checking people that it is about checking goods and services. This isn't rocket science, but it suits to keep stating its impossible and if that is said enough times people will start to believe it, without questioning why, and without you having to put up any evidence to demonstrate why it is impossible.

There are many different kinds of borders. The ones for checking people are at points of entry for those people - airports, ferry debarkation points, etc. Given both the CTA and the implications of the GFA, both sides have agreed that any border with Ireland is not required for checking people.

For goods, you've simplified the issue to one of tariffs only. As you point out, these can be handled electronically or at points not actually on the border. However, there are also issues of sanitary/phytosamitary, rules of origin checks, regulatory and standards alignment checks, and the small issue of ensuring that what is on the truck actually matches the manifesto. When the EU trades with the rest of the world these checks happen at border entry points (ports, mainly).

It's probably not impossible, but it needs to be written down in detail so that every point and issue can be examined and cross-examined. It's up to the UK to do this, not to rely on third-hand comments.

[WTFH]

[QUOTE=Yorkie62;2619325]
Every lorry that crosses a border carries with a manifest detailing what it is carrying and what the point of destination is. It has to. This manifest is generated at its point of departure electronically, it is held electronically.

It is therefore not that difficult to implement cross border tariffs at the point of departure, arrival, or any point in between.

And you know that it is not that difficult to implement?
And where do you implement it - you’re going to have to make a decision here, a business transporting goods across a border will need to know do they need to produce it at the point of departure from the pickup point, at the point of crossing the border, or is it the responsibility of the delivery point?

This is done currently between the EU and third countries. How the hell do you think the EU trades with the rest of the world.

Correct, it is. Check out the SAD laws, take a look at form C88. For each and every consignment. That’s how the UK currently trades with non-EU countries.

[Old Greg]

[QUOTE=WTFH;2619331]

Every lorry that crosses a border carries with a manifest detailing what it is carrying and what the point of destination is. It has to. This manifest is generated at its point of departure electronically, it is held electronically.



And you know that it is not that difficult to implement?
And where do you implement it - you’re going to have to make a decision here, a business transporting goods across a border will need to know do they need to produce it at the point of departure from the pickup point, at the point of crossing the border, or is it the responsibility of the delivery point?




Correct, it is. Check out the SAD laws, take a look at form C88. For each and every consignment. That’s how the UK currently trades with non-EU countries.

Do we know how many external border crossings the EU currently has and how many are unmanned?

[Yorkie62]

1 How does that relate to the cross border agri-food supply chains?
2 Have you ever been to the border between an EU country and a non EU / EEA / CH country and seen how much infrastructure there is?

1. How do you think food/agriculture is transported. Or are those articulated lorries entering the fresh vegetable processing plant just down the road from me a figment of my imagination.

2. Yes. Most of the infrastructure of which existed prior to the EU/EEA, and the primary function of which is the checking and processing of people not goods and services. Goods and services tariffs are processed away from the actual border crossings.

Tell me why there is no solution.

[meridian]

Every lorry that crosses a border carries with a manifest detailing what it is carrying and what the point of destination is. It has to. This manifest is generated at its point of departure electronically, it is held electronically. It is therefore not that difficult to implement cross border tariffs at the point of departure, arrival, or any point in between.

And you know that it is not that difficult to implement?
And where do you implement it - you’re going to have to make a decision here, a business transporting goods across a border will need to know do they need to produce it at the point of departure from the pickup point, at the point of crossing the border, or is it the responsibility of the delivery point?

Just picking up on this bit, because it is literally my job to implement and test EDI messages for Advance Shipping Notices etc.

The delivery and shipping notes are generated both electronically (ie they are created in the sender's IT system) and physically printed for the driver. for some customers (certainly not all) we also send these electronically to the destination. To be able to send to the destination we spend around two - three months in planning, development, and testing.

For every business to be able to do this would need a phenomenal amount of time, cost, and effort. Every business would need the right software to start with, and then the development and testing time to ensure the interfaces to HMRC were working correctly. Not impossible, but not easy either.

For context, I think that something similar is running in Hungary where their Customs office requires electronic forms to be sent in, but this is for internal goods movements only. Cross-border stuff still requires the normal paperwork.

And of course it ignores that notifying Customs of a movement and paying VAT/Excise/Import duties is only one of the things that Customs checks for.

[meridian]

1. How do you think food/agriculture is transported. Or are those articulated lorries entering the fresh vegetable processing plant just down the road from me a figment of my imagination.

2. Yes. Most of the infrastructure of which existed prior to the EU/EEA, and the primary function of which is the checking and processing of people not goods and services. Goods and services tariffs are processed away from the actual border crossings.

Tell me why there is no solution.

No, this is most definitely not true. Go through the Swiss border in a car and, depending on where you cross, it is seamless. At the worst they'll ask for your passport and sell you a motorway ticket.

Go through in a truck and it is a very different proposition.

[Old Greg]

1. How do you think food/agriculture is transported. Or are those articulated lorries entering the fresh vegetable processing plant just down the road from me a figment of my imagination.

2. Yes. Most of the infrastructure of which existed prior to the EU/EEA, and the primary function of which is the checking and processing of people not goods and services. Goods and services tariffs are processed away from the actual border crossings.

Tell me why there is no solution.

So is raw milk crossing the border into the EEA with no checks at the border, for processing in the EU?

[Cirrus]

Tell me why there is no solution.

There are no solutions that can work.

There are solutions that could work but will never be accepted: Stay in the EU (cancel leaving or choose May's BRINO).

Then there are solutions that are politically plausible that could work in the next 5-10 years: upgrade import/export agreements, processes and infrastructure

There is however nothing that can work i) within the political constraints and ii) within the extremely short amount of time we have left.


We can only watch and hit the iceberg. A few people will get to the lifeboats.

[Old Greg]

No, this is most definitely not true. Go through the Swiss border in a car and, depending on where you cross, it is seamless. At the worst they'll ask for your passport and sell you a motorway ticket.

Go through in a truck and it is a very different proposition.

And the choice is to do similar at 208 crossing points (more than there are along the EU' entire eastern border and on the US / Canada border combined, or to reintroduce the concrete road blocks.