Yeeessss!! Let the fun begin.

[Whorty]

Depends what you mean by shafted. There will be a soft Brexit and more spending on infrastructure and public services in the midlands and North. But, yes, there won’t be a hard Brexit. TBH, I think it’s only a minority that really care about the type of Brexit.

Yes, by 'shafted' I was referring to them not getting the brexit they claim they voted for in 2016 (even thought they didn't). What they'll get is a form of brexit that was being touted back in 2016. Boris can't afford a hard brexit if he is to continue bribing the north - be interesting whether Farage keeps screaming like a girl though or just lets Boris get on with it.

[jamesbrown]

Yes, by 'shafted' I was referring to them not getting the brexit they claim they voted for in 2016 (even thought they didn't). What they'll get is a form of brexit that was being touted back in 2016. Boris can't afford a hard brexit if he is to continue bribing the north - be interesting whether Farage keeps screaming like a girl though or just lets Boris get on with it.

He isn’t going to shut up, but he faces the same struggle as those who will argue to rejoin. They will be fringe. It’s a dead issue, politically, even though the process has only just begun.

[Amanensia]

No, dividends are taxed at a lower marginal rate than income, currently. I mean taxing as income, which means taxing at the marginal income tax rates, which means that income is not corporate profit, which means no CT on that money paid to employees. But it means your taxes would increase and IR35 would be moot.

I don't follow.

Suppose my company makes an additional profit of 100. After CT that's 81. If that's paid to me as a dividend it becomes 74.9, assuming I'm a basic rate taxpayer. So an effective tax rate of 25.1% rather than the 20% on income. That's where we are right now.

Some of the suggestions flying about seem to imply that the CT remains the same (perhaps even increases, but let's go with remaining the same) but instead of a 7.5% dividend tax, the dividend is taxed as income at 20%. Under that scenario we get 100 -> 81 -> 64.8, an effective tax rate of 35.2% on basic rate income.

I don't think this is what you are suggesting, though - it sounds like you are saying set CT to zero for profits that will be distributed as dividends to the contractor? So the 100 stays at 100 after CT, and is then taxed at 20% as contractor income, leaving 80 in my pocket. An effective tax rate of 20%. But that gives a reduction in tax so it can't be what you mean.

The only other thing I can think you might mean is that the 100 is treated as salary, so is subject to ERNI, EENI and IT rather than CT. But that's no different from IR35, so really that suggestion just boils down to "put everyone inside IR35, no exceptions." But it doesn't really sound like that's what you're suggesting, either.

So what am I missing?

[Old Greg]

I don't follow.

Suppose my company makes an additional profit of 100. After CT that's 81. If that's paid to me as a dividend it becomes 74.9, assuming I'm a basic rate taxpayer. So an effective tax rate of 25.1% rather than the 20% on income. That's where we are right now.

Some of the suggestions flying about seem to imply that the CT remains the same (perhaps even increases, but let's go with remaining the same) but instead of a 7.5% dividend tax, the dividend is taxed as income at 20%. Under that scenario we get 100 -> 81 -> 64.8, an effective tax rate of 35.2% on basic rate income.

I don't think this is what you are suggesting, though - it sounds like you are saying set CT to zero for profits that will be distributed as dividends to the contractor? So the 100 stays at 100 after CT, and is then taxed at 20% as contractor income, leaving 80 in my pocket. An effective tax rate of 20%. But that gives a reduction in tax so it can't be what you mean.

The only other thing I can think you might mean is that the 100 is treated as salary, so is subject to ERNI, EENI and IT rather than CT. But that's no different from IR35, so really that suggestion just boils down to "put everyone inside IR35, no exceptions." But it doesn't really sound like that's what you're suggesting, either.

So what am I missing?

Treat the 100 as salary so divis and CT are not considerations. Then apply class whatever NIC @ 5% instead of Employers + Employees NIC.

[sasguru]

He isn’t going to shut up, but he faces the same struggle as those who will argue to rejoin. They will be fringe. It’s a dead issue, politically, even though the process has only just begun.

Most of the stupids, including the cretins on here, don't seem to understand that.

[rogerfederer]

The stupids have voted in large numbers for the Tories.
They've got to be placated now.
The money has to come from you lot, I'm afraid.
But al least chances of a hard Brexit are increased

As much as I think many of the swing voters in the EU referendum were misguided and lied to - which swung it - I think it shows a real lack of naivety, empathy and a disdain for the less intelligent - and those who are poor - to wish a so called 'hard brexit' on them.

I think quite a lot of us here, including many from the pro-brexit crowd, know that there will be quite a few years of instability, higher prices and - if the US gets its way - worsening quality of cheap food provided to them.

Anybody who is skint has potential there, of which most goes untapped towards as they head towards the darkened tunnel of their inevitable future regardless of where they're from and what they've done in their life.

We should be wishing the pro-brexit crowd poor and needy to have better conditions than now, lesser hardship and opportunities that they deserve. They're human and deserve to be treated as such.

Your permanent disdain for anybody seemingly less intelligent than you on this forum is a real eye opener to the crass nature of those who have done lucky in life and then believe it was all their own doing. I am nothing without my upbringing, opportunities and a hefty amount of luck; as are you.

Be nice, be kind, don't generalise and lump people in to one basket, because it is such divisions that entrenched elitism relies upon and it is for this for this reason that I will never vote Conservative.

[jamesbrown]

So what am I missing?

They would effectively apply PAYE to income of all types, including dividend income. How they treat moneyboxing/smoothing of income is another issue (would it be a look-through structure/self-employed treatment?). How they treat a capital distribution on closure is another issue. But, big picture: dividends would be treated like other income. They could simply increase dividend taxes, in which case that additional tax would be post-CT on the profits paid as dividends, but dividend taxes are paid by more than owner/proprietors (some of whom are not well-off). Overall, I think they are more likely to treat dividend income like other income.

[sasguru]

As much as I think many of the swing voters in the EU referendum were misguided and lied to - which swung it - I think it shows a real lack of naivety, empathy and a disdain for the less intelligent - and those who are poor - to wish a so called 'hard brexit' on them.

I think quite a lot of us here, including many from the pro-brexit crowd, know that there will be quite a few years of instability, higher prices and - if the US gets its way - worsening quality of cheap food provided to them.

Anybody who is skint has potential there, of which most goes untapped towards as they head towards the darkened tunnel of their inevitable future regardless of where they're from and what they've done in their life.

We should be wishing the pro-brexit crowd poor and needy to have better conditions than now, lesser hardship and opportunities that they deserve. They're human and deserve to be treated as such.

Your permanent disdain for anybody seemingly less intelligent than you on this forum is a real eye opener to the crass nature of those who have done lucky in life and then believe it was all their own doing. I am nothing without my upbringing, opportunities and a hefty amount of luck; as are you.

Be nice, be kind, don't generalise and lump people in to one basket, because it is such divisions that entrenched elitism relies upon and it is for this for this reason that I will never vote Conservative.

Cool story bro.
But the "people" should get what they voted for. Otherwise how are they to make decisions in the future?

As a famous American statesman (Abe Lincoln I think it was) said, and I paraphrase, sometimes in a democracy the people have to have their backsides held to the fire as a result of their decisions.

Perhaps you're objecting to my use of the term "stupids". Let me define it precisely for you: the 50% of the population with an IQ less than 100.

[Amanensia]

They would effectively apply PAYE to income of all types, including dividend income. How they treat moneyboxing/smoothing of income is another issue (would it be a look-through structure/self-employed treatment?). How they treat a capital distribution on closure is another issue. But, big picture: dividends would be treated like other income. They could simply increase dividend taxes, in which case that additional tax would be post-CT on the profits paid as dividends, but dividend taxes are paid by more than owner/proprietors (some of whom are not well-off). Overall, I think they are more likely to treat dividend income like other income.

Ah, so what you're saying is not so much "tax dividends as income" but rather "tax dividends as salary", so subject to all PAYE deductions, not just income tax. The only difference between that and IR35 would be the taxation of undistributed income hence your mention of moneyboxing etc.

Surely the honest and transparent (not to mention easy) way to implement that would be to consolidate NI (both EE and ER) into income tax rates. Then everything just works automatically...

Never happen, of course.

[original PM]

The stupids have voted in large numbers for the Tories.
They've got to be placated now.
The money has to come from you lot, I'm afraid.
But al least chances of a hard Brexit are increased

So are you saying voting for Labour and having Labour in parliament with a majority would have been a better outcome?