DOOM: ministrone was right! DOOM: ministrone was right! - Page 3
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  1. #21

    Prof Cunning @ Oxford Uni

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    A little bit more on the delivery...

    Each vaccination unit will consist of 3 people. One will draw the drug from the vial, change needles to the hypodermic one, next one performs the injection, and the third one does the clean up.
    It is expected that the patient will be kept for around 15 mins after delivery to confirm no anaphylactic reaction before releasing them.
    The GP practices are expected to work 12 hour days doing this, alongside treating normal patients.

    To carry out 200 injections per day at 15 mins per patient requires 2 shifts of 4 teams. 2x4x3 = 24 trained staff. In reality, if they are expected to run the programme 7 days a week, there needs to be at least one more team
    To hit the 500 jabs per day figure, they'll need 10 teams (for 5 days a week) or 14+ teams for 7 days a week. That's 60-84 trained staff.

    ...and that's before discussing the logistics of how to keep all these people separated from the general patients without setting up marquees in car parks.
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  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by WTFH View Post
    A little bit more on the delivery...

    Each vaccination unit will consist of 3 people. One will draw the drug from the vial, change needles to the hypodermic one, next one performs the injection, and the third one does the clean up.
    It sounds more complex than Alexei's squirrel mating ritual.

  3. #23

    Prof Cunning @ Oxford Uni

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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Greg View Post
    It sounds more complex than Alexei's squirrel mating ritual.

    ...and takes 14 minutes longer.
    I'm perfect, in a very specific and limited way.
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  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by WTFH View Post
    ...and takes 14 minutes longer.
    The clean up can take longer if Alexei doesn't stop his anticoagulants three days in advance.

  5. #25

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    Each injection takes 15 minutes?


    Injection < 1 min. 40 years ago without any modern technology that is how long the vaccine injection took at school. Last time we had injections to go abroad it was < 10 mins for the family. When the nice nurse at the hospital takes (technically more challenging) 3 lots of blood from me every year on her own and checks my history I am in and out in well under 5 minutes. One nurse does about 10 an hour (some people don't keep their appointments.


    A chilled rack that you prefill with needle + syringes, the syringe can be modified with a stop so you don't have to check quantity you just pull back until it stops and you see a green dot or a even a single use injection device with or without a cartridge. Drop in the sharps bin - jobs a good un.


    If the medical team are taking > 5 minutes a patient they are slacking.


    15 minutes in a waiting area




    So the injection will take ~ 1-5 minute. The observation time is 15 minutes and can easily be done in a marquee with 1-2 medical staff (watching for shock) + security.
    "If you didn't do anything that wasn't good for you it would be a very dull life. What are you gonna do? Everything that is pleasant in life is dangerous."

    I want to see the hand of history on his collar.

  6. #26

    Prof Cunning @ Oxford Uni

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    Quote Originally Posted by vetran View Post
    15 minutes in a waiting area

    So the injection will take ~ 1-5 minute. The observation time is 15 minutes and can easily be done in a marquee with 1-2 medical staff (watching for shock) + security.
    Yes, that could be done if there is a safe and secure way of moving the patients through the process.


    Quote Originally Posted by vetran View Post
    When the nice nurse at the hospital takes (technically more challenging) 3 lots of blood from me every year on her own and checks my history I am in and out in well under 5 minutes. One nurse does about 10 an hour (some people don't keep their appointments.

    A chilled rack that you prefill with needle + syringes, the syringe can be modified with a stop so you don't have to check quantity you just pull back until it stops and you see a green dot or a even a single use injection device with or without a cartridge. Drop in the sharps bin - jobs a good un.
    Ah yes, because drawing blood and injecting a vaccine are the same thing.

    ...or not.

    Green book chapter 4.

    https://assets.publishing.service.go...-Chapter-4.pdf

    Each vaccine should be reconstituted and drawn up when required in order to avoid errors and maintain vaccine efficacy and stability. Vaccines should not be drawn up in advance of an immunisation session.
    Unless the vaccine is supplied in a pre-filled syringe with an integral needle, a new needle of a size appropriate to the individual patient should be used to inject the vaccine (see ‘Choice of needle’ on page 29).
    I'm perfect, in a very specific and limited way.
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  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by WTFH View Post
    Yes, that could be done if there is a safe and secure way of moving the patients through the process.




    Ah yes, because drawing blood and injecting a vaccine are the same thing.

    ...or not.

    Green book chapter 4.

    https://assets.publishing.service.go...-Chapter-4.pdf

    Of course they are not the same, to draw blood you need to find a suitable vein which takes expertise especially on older / sick people who will be some of the first to be injected(frequently you talk to medical staff and they say oh we will ask nurse x she is good at finding a vein when the doctor fails) .

    Self injection is of course done safely daily by millions.

    One suggestion was a cooled rack which may or may not contain vaccine ready but can be assembled with syringes in advance.

    Maxim perfected firing hundreds of bullets a minute by using a cartridge system. We are still using syringes that Victorian doctors would recognise for vaccination. There must be better mechanisms out there.

    Are the drugs reconstituted? All the images in the press seem to be of vials indeed you mention this "One will draw the drug from the vial, ". Vial based means it has to be hermetically sealed not mixed per vaccine shot.

    "If you didn't do anything that wasn't good for you it would be a very dull life. What are you gonna do? Everything that is pleasant in life is dangerous."

    I want to see the hand of history on his collar.

  8. #28

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    ah here you are

    Needle-Free Injection Technology | PharmaJet

    needleless injection in cartridges. Auto fill the cartridges in the factory and freeze as needed. Pick out each cartridge from freezer in wrapper/holder and pop in gun.

    inject

    Eject cartridge in bin.

    no chance of needle pricks and facilitates injection by less qualified staff.

    Safe & secure method
    line up in car park socially distanced with marshals and a line ending 10 foot from Marquee. Put red / Green light on Marquee door. Doctor gets a footpedal to request next patient Operates green light turns off default red when pushed.

    Bar code / phone reader on table / door so person can be connected to vaccine capsule (dodgy batch etc)

    Door other side to 15 minute rest area and exit with scanner. Release based on scanning phone on the exit lane when 15 mins up McDonalds style order pickup with your number on it e.g. number 1873 may leave, 1922 needs to wait 13 mins.

    side door for emergencies.
    Last edited by vetran; 16th November 2020 at 15:45.
    "If you didn't do anything that wasn't good for you it would be a very dull life. What are you gonna do? Everything that is pleasant in life is dangerous."

    I want to see the hand of history on his collar.

  9. #29

    Prof Cunning @ Oxford Uni

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    Quote Originally Posted by vetran View Post
    ah here you are

    Needle-Free Injection Technology | PharmaJet

    needleless injection in cartridges. Auto fill the cartridges in the factory and freeze as needed. Pick out each cartridge from freezer in wrapper/holder and pop in gun.

    inject

    Eject cartridge in bin.

    no chance of needle pricks and facilitates injection by less qualified staff.

    Safe & secure method
    line up in car park socially distanced with marshals and a line ending 10 foot from Marquee. Put red / Green light on Marquee door. Doctor gets a footpedal to request next patient Operates green light turns off default red when pushed.

    Bar code / phone reader on table / door so person can be connected to vaccine capsule (dodgy batch etc)

    Door other side to 15 minute rest area and exit with scanner. Release based on scanning phone on the exit lane when 15 mins up McDonalds style order pickup with your number on it e.g. number 1873 may leave, 1922 needs to wait 13 mins.

    side door for emergencies.
    You are Matt Handcock and I claim my £5.
    I'm perfect, in a very specific and limited way.
    Hands... out infractions
    Face... the music
    Space... between the ears

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by WTFH View Post
    You are Matt Handcock and I claim my £5.

    excellent split it with me. That's how this partnering with government works, we spot the mistakes after you make them and you give us cash in brown envelopes.
    Last edited by vetran; 17th November 2020 at 09:38.
    "If you didn't do anything that wasn't good for you it would be a very dull life. What are you gonna do? Everything that is pleasant in life is dangerous."

    I want to see the hand of history on his collar.

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