A general discussion on Indian consultancies and racism...

[rambaugh]

Another RACIST post. Buddy, are u in India now? Your post is gross exaggeration of things and you sound really frustrated! Are u being thrown out because you are incompetent? its okay, you must have learnt a thing or two from there!

People are just candidly expressing an opinion there is no need to escalate it to anything other than that.

I was actually hoping that this thread would allow some Indian companies staff to express themselves and tell us what they think about European workers. I'm sure they have some stories to tell as well.

[ChimpMaster]

Bluedrop, it's not racism so calm down and look at this rationally. I can see you are clearly offended, perhaps because the truth has hit closer to home than you would like. You need to look at this from a different perspective.

The general consensus is strong on this topic - consultants shipped in from India are, on the whole, of mediocre quality: this is not conjecture or slander, this is fact. I have seen it at IB clients, and at MRD clients, so it is widespread and has a well represented sample group. We have a contractor at one of my clients who is from South India (as 90% are) and could barely speak English, and yet he was hired just because he was cheaper than the locals. He has basically spent 6 months here learning to speak English, and that is not an exaggeration (and it's not a racist comment either). He also has NO technical ability, so has clearly lied on his CV... so he has been resigned to just documenting for the past 6 months. Now admittedly that is one of the worst cases I have seen.

At an investment bank, I have personally interviewed offshore consultants on the phone, who are able to answer at least the basic technical questions with little trouble. Yet when they turn up on-site, they know nothing and expect to be trained from scratch. It's like we've been sent a whole different person! And for some reason it always takes 4 or 5 offshore staff to take on one local person's job; I'm amazed that cost savings are still achievable.

There are many gripes on this subject, including the loss of local jobs to less able people and the abuse of the visa system to name but two.

My professional opinion of Indian consultancies is in line with the rest of the board here, and I have actively warned I.T. directors to be especially diligent and thorough when looking at such hires. I personally have been lumbered with dragging too many dead horses around and I'm not going to do it any longer.

I should also add that there are indeed a few good (offshore) Indian consultants, but they are a rare find. And my opinion is by no means a reflection on the local (i.e. British born & educated) Indian/Chinese/South American etc consultants because I see them as no different to anyone else locally.

[stek]

Bluedrop, it's not racism so calm down and look at this rationally. I can see you are clearly offended, perhaps because the truth has hit closer to home than you would like. You need to look at this from a different perspective.

The general consensus is strong on this topic - consultants shipped in from India are, on the whole, of mediocre quality: this is not conjecture or slander, this is fact. I have seen it at IB clients, and at MRD clients, so it is widespread and has a well represented sample group. We have a contractor at one of my clients who is from South India (as 90% are) and could barely speak English, and yet he was hired just because he was cheaper than the locals. He has basically spent 6 months here learning to speak English, and that is not an exaggeration (and it's not a racist comment either). He also has NO technical ability, so has clearly lied on his CV... so he has been resigned to just documenting for the past 6 months. Now admittedly that is one of the worst cases I have seen.

At an investment bank, I have personally interviewed offshore consultants on the phone, who are able to answer at least the basic technical questions with little trouble. Yet when they turn up on-site, they know nothing and expect to be trained from scratch. It's like we've been sent a whole different person! And for some reason it always takes 4 or 5 offshore staff to take on one local person's job; I'm amazed that cost savings are still achievable.

There are many gripes on this subject, including the loss of local jobs to less able people and the abuse of the visa system to name but two.

My professional opinion of Indian consultancies is in line with the rest of the board here, and I have actively warned I.T. directors to be especially diligent and thorough when looking at such hires. I personally have been lumbered with dragging too many dead horses around and I'm not going to do it any longer.

I should also add that there are indeed a few good (offshore) Indian consultants, but they are a rare find. And my opinion is by no means a reflection on the local (i.e. British born & educated) Indian/Chinese/South American etc consultants because I see them as no different to anyone else locally.

WHS x 1000000000000000000

[mickymellon]

A good thread and pretty much spot on in my experience.
Pretty poor show of the other poster pulling the racism card so early too.

I doubt you'd get near your current figure and you'll have to deal with a raft of incompetents along the way.

[moniker]

A friend of mine is a UK-based, Indian contractor from Chennai. While out for lunch some time ago, he told me that he decided to move to the UK in order to be able to pursue what he enjoys the most, agile software engineering.

He used to work for one of the large consultancies in India (whose name shall remain untold). According to him, they are basically run like Accenture in that they hire graduates as developers, which they then send out on customer gigs as "senior consultants". While they might have some academic knowledge and qualifications, they rarely ever have any sort of real-life, practical experience. And they don't really need it either, because they will either have been promoted to some sort of managerial role within a year and not have to do techie stuff anymore anyway, or been forced out.

My friend realised he didn't want to be a manager anymore, and so moved to the UK. He is also one of the best contractors I've ever worked with -- throughout professional, outspoken, helpful and quality-minded.

He did warn me though, that once a sufficient number of Indians are working at the same place, the cultural pressure tend to take over even the best-intended, and he therefore tries to make sure that there aren't too many Indians working at the clients he goes to.

[wim121]

Isn't there a general term for this? RACISM.
Are you telling me that no English ppl have the above qualities? Please! I've seen tons of them. It all boils down to work ethics and personal value system.

And wait... An Indian graduate gets 3months of full time training - with countless tests, assignments. There is screening at every stage. You don't perform to the expected standard, you are out! In some companies, the last 3% of the batch are out- so its relative grading. Now coming to the real job itself, ppl work on avg 10hrs a day. And people less than 3-4 yrs experience usually are not sent onsite. What 'Indian workers not good' song are you singing?

I am an Indian and I find your post very offensive. I am a contractor and I have excellent reputation where ever I worked.

Although others have responded, I would like to as well.

Just because you're Indian, doesnt mean you point is valid. Were you born in the UK or India? How long have you stayed in India before? How long have you been in the UK for?

This goes back to my mother. She worked and lived in India for over a decade, so assimilated the culture very well. She would describe how the culture was the most rude to fellow citizens she had ever come across. Civilians would just ignore each other and use any opportunity to climb further up the ladder, no matter who they had to crap on to get up there. She has a better experience of India and native Indians than a lot of British-Indians.

I didnt want to believe it, until I experienced exactly what she had informed me of, repeatedly. Unfortunately the indicators are true and many others seem to share in that consensus.

Generalisations dont hold true with every member of every nationality, but they are a good compass. For example, Brits are well renowned for their stiff upper lip and dry sense of humour, confrontational nature to some degree and unfortunately due to chavs, lewd behaviour when drunk, among many things.

The yanks, are renowned for their hospitality/generosity to tourists however everyone expects a cut or tip there and is looking to milk you. That isnt racist, it is a fact, which I can attest to personally or direct you to Americans I know. Over there, everyone (waiters, bar staff, hotel reception making a call for you, room cleaning, etc etc) expects a tip and you are expected to give one, even if the service was only mediocre. A lot of a budget for visiting the US is forced tips. If you dont, you are treated like an ogre.



So put your silly little race card away. It is as tiring as a black person justifying their drawing of the race card because of slavery, even though Africans were enslaved for the shortest period and fewest numbers of any slaves in history.

[wim121]

I am a contractor and I have excellent reputation where ever I worked.

Are you sure about that?

I somehow doubt it. You either have an excellent reputation, which means you do stab others in the back and do a poor job, or have a speckled reputation but commit fully to the companies needs. It is an either or option that is fixed in stone.

That is no slur against you. It is a slur against society. One cannot perform their job to the best of their abilities and put every need of the clients co first without putting noses out of joint.

It took me a very long time to learn that people resent, even hate you, if you work so hard or so well (just my normal speed) that it makes them look bad in comparison or brings the end of an assignment closer. However going slower to meet their handicap isnt doing your best for the client co, but the best for your working relations.

There is the odd exception where hard work is appreciated and not resented (in rare circumstances where you're the only one at a certain grade/assigned job), but that doesnt happen often.

The next problem is called playing the game. It differs in severity wherever you go, but to some degree, "office politics" exist everywhere. Sometimes you must go along with a bad idea, speak or work with someone who is a detriment to the company, etc, just to make working conditions favourable so you can do your work unimpeded. If you dont play the game and sit there doing your best for the company, you can be sabotaged at whim. Usually we all find a happy medium.



I consider myself having a "good" reputation as some previous client co's ask for me by name and refuse any other contractor. However there are places where I havent been willing to screw the company over and only played the game until half time or used diplomacy. While many may not have any particular feelings towards me or even remember me, if I was loved by all, that would be a clear indicator that I wasnt a good contractor at all.

[NotAllThere]

As this moved off topic and degenerated rather into - moved to General.

[BrilloPad]

I too believe prof forums should maintain a level of mutual respect.

The thing is that this is not a prof forum - it is general. If you want prof try business or accountancy.

Having said that I do agree with you that there are some very good Indian employees out there. I have worked with quite a few - all top quality. Perhaps a bit too narrow minded and need more free thinking. But they do as they are told.

But I do not believe wim121 was being racist. That is just want they found.

[mudskipper]

My two pennorth.

There is a fundamental difference between the culture in India and the culture in the UK.

In India, if you don't do well, you and your family will starve. There's no welfare state to provide you with housing, food and money. Parents, therefore, naturally want their children to achieve the best possible. Children respect their parents much more so than in the west.

My belief is that IT is seen as a ticket to success. Huge Indian employers, high demand for services from rich western companies. So IT is positively pushed as a career choice. This means you get a lot of youngsters going into IT who may not necessarily have the inbuilt aptitude or mindset. They work damned hard, pass the exams and generally get by OK, but are unlikely ever to really excel, as, given a freer choice (as we in the UK are fortunate enough to enjoy) they would be doing something different.

Of course there are those who do have the aptitude, and do excel, and I have been lucky enough to work with a number of excellent Indian contractors. However, even the very good ones, who work for the big consultancies, are constrained by the culture of those consultancies - in my experience the developers are there to code, and have little or no business knowledge or understanding. If you ask for something stupid, something stupid is what you'll get - no questions asked. There seems to be little encouragement for people to question, or use initiative. There's also very much an 'us and them' mentality - or, as some might put it, covering arses. There's also very clearly defined roles which leads to frustration and delays in getting the job done.

Indian staff are well trained in the underlying technologies, but this doesn't really equip them to tackle real world issues - this only comes with experience. It seems that the most junior staff don't work with adequate supervision which leads to poor quality.

Most posters on this forum do know that not all Indians are hopeless, and that there are equally hopeless Brits, but the frustrations of working on a large project with off shore teams are immense, and don't necessarily make for carefully worded rational posts.