Newbie. Just found out about the Loan charge. Help

[Raymondo]

Does anyone know what we can do regarding these Umbrella companies. So I seem to be in a fairly unique position where technically I am still involved in one of these schemes. So - having asked my umbrella company to recalculate my earnings from January 2018 via PAYE they are thus far refusing to, also they are not acknowledging what they are doing is wrong. In-fact they are now ignoring me.

What can I do regarding them - surely they cannot get off scott free here? They are the ones who got me into this. Surely I can report them - I mean, I am happy too. But will HMRC do anything about them - I mean, the are only breaking the law!

[webberg]

Well, there is a website that says everything is subject to PAYE and that they do not do "long" (sic) schemes.

However, there are a a few potential companies it could be.

One of them (SC518508) certainly has a name in its director list which is associated with various other arrangements, most of them under HMRC enquiry.

[Raymondo]

Well, there is a website that says everything is subject to PAYE and that they do not do "long" (sic) schemes.

However, there are a a few potential companies it could be.

One of them (SC518508) certainly has a name in its director list which is associated with various other arrangements, most of them under HMRC enquiry.

Hi Webberg. I am not sure if I misunderstood your comment. Sorry mate. My Umbrella company have diddled me and are refusing to play ball after I called them on the illegality of the scheme they got me into. I was wondering if I were to report them would anything come of it. I can't believe they can be so publicly apparent and operating and get away with their deception and misdeeds whilst I get hammered.

[webberg]

Hi Webberg. I am not sure if I misunderstood your comment. Sorry mate. My Umbrella company have diddled me and are refusing to play ball after I called them on the illegality of the scheme they got me into. I was wondering if I were to report them would anything come of it. I can't believe they can be so publicly apparent and operating and get away with their deception and misdeeds whilst I get hammered.

You need to be careful about throwing the "illegal" word around.

As far as I know, no Court in the UK has declared what they are alleged to have done, "illegal".

HMRC has a view that the arrangements do not achieve the tax result promised and if this was tested, you would be in a Tribunal/Court arguing the case. Even if HMRC's view prevailed, that is a long way from illegal. Tax law can be interpreted in many ways and is not black and white.

You also need to consider what risk warnings you were given. If you have a scheme offered to you without such warnings, then there may be cause for action. However that requires that the person giving the advice and not the risk warning is a professional - subject to minimum standards - and in the vast majority of instances, that is not the case with these promoters.

The general rule is that if you have had tax advice from somebody who is no better than the man down the pub, you should go and get a professional opinion. One you can sue on if necessary.

I have no interest in defending this company or what they are alleged to have done, but you need to be realistic. Short of a referral to Trading Standards, what they did was not illegal. I'm not going to comment on whether it was sharp practice, less than the whole truth, misleading, unethical, immoral or devious as I was not there when you joined them.

HMRC cannot stop a company trading unless they have commited tax fraud, and I have to say they probably have not.

You do though need to exit - quickly - and then see what your options are for legal redress.

[Raymondo]

You need to be careful about throwing the "illegal" word around.

As far as I know, no Court in the UK has declared what they are alleged to have done, "illegal".

HMRC has a view that the arrangements do not achieve the tax result promised and if this was tested, you would be in a Tribunal/Court arguing the case. Even if HMRC's view prevailed, that is a long way from illegal. Tax law can be interpreted in many ways and is not black and white.

You also need to consider what risk warnings you were given. If you have a scheme offered to you without such warnings, then there may be cause for action. However that requires that the person giving the advice and not the risk warning is a professional - subject to minimum standards - and in the vast majority of instances, that is not the case with these promoters.

The general rule is that if you have had tax advice from somebody who is no better than the man down the pub, you should go and get a professional opinion. One you can sue on if necessary.

I have no interest in defending this company or what they are alleged to have done, but you need to be realistic. Short of a referral to Trading Standards, what they did was not illegal. I'm not going to comment on whether it was sharp practice, less than the whole truth, misleading, unethical, immoral or devious as I was not there when you joined them.

HMRC cannot stop a company trading unless they have commited tax fraud, and I have to say they probably have not.

You do though need to exit - quickly - and then see what your options are for legal redress.

Thank you for the clarification Webberg. I take your point. But isn't it mind boggling that they can push what HMRC deem to be fraudulent schemes (we know the law will side with them) whilst I get hammered even when I never asked for this scheme and was essentially talked into it. I actually have emails from when I entered into the scheme where I am saying is this all above board and they say yes yes yes.

Oh man these are bitter times indeed. Had to cancel so much for my family. Not fair. Annoyed with myself the most.

[cojak]

I realise that this is gut-wrenching for many people, but please be aware that I will remove any posts that I deem problematic.

[NotAllThere]

But isn't it mind boggling that they can push what HMRC deem to be fraudulent schemes (we know the law will side with them

HMRC don't deem it fraudulent. In their opinion, it is a mechanism of avoiding tax that doesn't work. In the provider's opinion it does. What the provider's don't make well known is that if they're wrong, you pay, and they keep their percentage with no liability. They will not tell you about the risks as that is your responsibility (under tax law), and they're a bunch of nasty little ****ers.

It's all above board in the sense that they are not breaking any criminal or civil law.

Insult isn't libellous. Claiming something is illegal or fraudulent that isn't could well be libellous.

[webberg]

As the mods say - and I agree - whilst it's tempting to claim that promoters have duped you into something that is somewhere between ineffective and fraud, the reality is that a Court, if asked, will ask if you took steps to verify what you were told.

If the answer is no, then caveat emptor.

Whilst it's of limited comfort to you today, I am amazed that the Government allowed a multi million pound industry to be unregulated and did not give a suitable authority (perhaps the FCA) the power to approve, audit and close firms who they consider to be unworthy.

Yes, I suspect you were talked into the plan by a salesman who was long on benefit and short on truth. Unfortunately that's not illegal, fraudulent or even a misdemeanour.

You need to retain your anger at how you have been treated because that energy will be useful later, but in the meantime, try to divorce yourself from the decision made years ago and deal with the consequences now in the most objective way you can, prioritising your responsibilities to those who depend on you. It's not easy and you may need some professional help.

[starstruck]

HMRC don't deem it fraudulent. In their opinion, it is a mechanism of avoiding tax that doesn't work. In the provider's opinion it does. What the provider's don't make well known is that if they're wrong, you pay, and they keep their percentage with no liability. They will not tell you about the risks as that is your responsibility (under tax law), and they're a bunch of nasty little ****ers.

It's all above board in the sense that they are not breaking any criminal or civil law.

Insult isn't libellous. Claiming something is illegal or fraudulent that isn't could well be libellous.

Didn't Mel Stride recently tell the House that these scheme were illegal? One of the schemes should sue him for libel

[DeadDOTAS]

First of all: you are NOT alone. There's thousands in your / worse positions. Some know already, many don't at all.

The Loan Charge Action Group (LCAG) can provide a lot of help/support and is also on some "actions" to counteract the LC:
https://www.hmrcloancharge.info/

Please check them out.