A useful round up

[lowpaidworker]

I will repeat.

LCAG are doing some good work, creating noise and publicity and now have some legal muscle.

I wish them well in their campaign and we continue to assist them with information and contacts.

Their action however will NOT solve the question of whether there is a tax liability.

They may have the loan charge delayed/removed. (This may not be known until after it becomes due and payable but may happen).

Even if that is the case however HMRC believe that there is a liability and losing the loan charge as a weapon will weaken them but will not solve the problem.

"Their action however will NOT solve the question of whether there is a tax liability"....

I get that. Am sure if HMRC do get their wings clipped they will go back and figure out some other way.

Its not just LCAGs work, I see a commons report/debate/RFI starting around HMRC powers. Am guessing maybe some are starting to question these, use of APNs right of appeal etc.

Then there is IR35 and so many powerful organisations highlighting HMRCs abysmal and haphazard policy on IR35.

Sure none of this goes away. I'll still have four years of loans sitting out there unless someone or something finds a way within the law or a law change where they are written off or settled for a vastly reduced sum sometime in the future. Yep it will be a long fight that someone has to give up on eventually.

If its HMRC it will be brushed under the carpet.

[Joolsey86]

Probably similar situation to me. By being permanent income is set. They can't argue. I have a house and still a mortgage but I have two relatively young children for someone my age. Will be at least 15 years before they are no longer dependents.

Forcing me to sell my house would mean I would need somewhere to live... if I then buy somewhere a lot cheaper I will still pay stamp duty on the purchase. Also forcing me into a double taxation as I have no reason to move as kids settled at Infant and Junior schools.

Cant wait to have this discussion with HMRC. I am preparing a list of questions for when that brown envelope arrives.

Would be great if we could come up with some kind of consolidated list and all be ready to object and send them a list of questions they need to answer instead of vice versa.

Just to mention once again - I joined LCAG and they are doing sterling work. We will have our day in court. I just hope the press when it gets there follow it extremely closely. I have a feeling there hundreds of thousands of people that would like to see LCAG defeat HMRC... shame these people don't register with them

LCAG is for the desperate, those with nothing to lose for the most part, those that have 10s of years in these schemes. I hope they win mind you. — I wish I had enough in the bank to join them mind you as a matter of principle.

CLSO2 however much it feels like coercion is probably the reason LCAG membership will plateau, the difference in between CLSO2 settlement via LC19 is substantial, and enough for us to take a massive gulp before not taking the government up on their blackmailing offer and going with the law tribunal.

[dammit chloe]

LCAG is for the desperate, those with nothing to lose for the most part, those that have 10s of years in these schemes. I hope they win mind you. — I wish I had enough in the bank to join them mind you as a matter of principle.

CLSO2 however much it feels like coercion is probably the reason LCAG membership will plateau, the difference in between CLSO2 settlement via LC19 is substantial, and enough for us to take a massive gulp before not taking the government up on their blackmailing offer and going with the law tribunal.

LCAG is £100 to join. Not exactly a massive dent in the wallet. Any additional funding for legal fight is voluntary. They are doing well building up political pressure. HMRC are coming under increasing scrutiny and pressure. Many members of LCAG may settle/are settling but it doesn't mean that they are not still fighting the Loan Charge. It's a principle as well and many of us want to give HMRC a bloody nose even if we do not stand to benefit personally.

I highly recommend that those who think that retrospective legislation is wrong sign up/help out. IR35 is clearly the next target for delving into people's tax history.

[Joolsey86]

LCAG is £100 to join. Not exactly a massive dent in the wallet. Any additional funding for legal fight is voluntary. They are doing well building up political pressure. HMRC are coming under increasing scrutiny and pressure. Many members of LCAG may settle/are settling but it doesn't mean that they are not still fighting the Loan Charge. It's a principle as well and many of us want to give HMRC a bloody nose even if we do not stand to benefit personally.

I highly recommend that those who think that retrospective legislation is wrong sign up/help out. IR35 is clearly the next target for delving into people's tax history.

I gave LCAG £100 as a matter of principle, didn’t join it as difference between LC19 and CLSO2 is too large.

I still hope they win.

[webberg]

"Their action however will NOT solve the question of whether there is a tax liability"....

I get that. Am sure if HMRC do get their wings clipped they will go back and figure out some other way.

NO.

HMRC already has the "some other way" and has been pursuing it since (in my opinion) 2012, and in their warped view of history, around 2004.

The loan charge is a clumsy attempt to scare everybody into settling. We think of it as a type of APN but one that captures everything, not just those years liable to APNs.

Your choices today remain as they were on 17th March 2016.

You can settle.
You can litigate.
You can discuss and resolve.

Settlement has its issues and is much less certain than I would like.

Litigation is not certain, will take a while and of course, may not produce the desired answer.

If you choose to settle, the loan charge is out of the equation.

If you choose to litigate/discuss, then the loan charge has to be managed.

That management is a combination of understanding the scheme you were involved in and how it relates to the loan charge rules, what defences there are to disclose/not disclose loans, what consequences may flow, taking steps to mitigate it, taking steps to litigate to delay it.

Ultimately though, the question of whether a liability arises outside of the loan charge always has been and remains the core issue to be dealt with.

[lowpaidworker]

NO.

HMRC already has the "some other way" and has been pursuing it since (in my opinion) 2012, and in their warped view of history, around 2004.

The loan charge is a clumsy attempt to scare everybody into settling. We think of it as a type of APN but one that captures everything, not just those years liable to APNs.

Your choices today remain as they were on 17th March 2016.

You can settle.
You can litigate.
You can discuss and resolve.

Settlement has its issues and is much less certain than I would like.

Litigation is not certain, will take a while and of course, may not produce the desired answer.

If you choose to settle, the loan charge is out of the equation.

If you choose to litigate/discuss, then the loan charge has to be managed.

That management is a combination of understanding the scheme you were involved in and how it relates to the loan charge rules, what defences there are to disclose/not disclose loans, what consequences may flow, taking steps to mitigate it, taking steps to litigate to delay it.

Ultimately though, the question of whether a liability arises outside of the loan charge always has been and remains the core issue to be dealt with.

Thanks once again for this. I understand my options although not yet which is the best one for me. As they say am still gathering requirements putting everything together and I will contact and sit down with someone/specialist and figure out which is best for me. Personally I want to fight on as settling as either a LC2019 or CLSO2 I just cannot afford..... its impossible given my circumstances or commitments.

More importantly superb representation to the HoC committee Wednesday. I just watched it. All 3 that gave evidence were brilliant.

[Hero1234]

Thanks once again for this. I understand my options although not yet which is the best one for me. As they say am still gathering requirements putting everything together and I will contact and sit down with someone/specialist and figure out which is best for me. Personally I want to fight on as settling as either a LC2019 or CLSO2 I just cannot afford..... its impossible given my circumstances or commitments.

More importantly superb representation to the HoC committee Wednesday. I just watched it. All 3 that gave evidence were brilliant.

is there a link so i can watch it too?

[dammit chloe]

is there a link so i can watch it too?

https://parliamentlive.tv/event/inde...c-f0dd19404f56

Approx 17.29 it starts. If not yet part of LCAG then please join. This item was not on the agenda. LCAG member send in a lot of submissions which is why it pushed its way onto it as they say in the introduction.

[webberg]

Couple of pedantic corrections.

1. It was the House of Lords, not the Commons. There are two Commons inquiries going on at the moment which say they are open, but I'm not sure yet if they will be calling more witnesses.

2. I appeared as a representative of WTT and not of LCAG. As I've made clear on many occasions, some members of LCAG are also in Big Group and as such have access to material we have produced over the past 3 years+ and we have placed no restrictions on that being used. However, our remit is somewhat wider than LCAG's and we want (and believe we have) a solution to the whole of the tax issue and not just the loan charge.

[Jaxonius]

Couple of pedantic corrections.

1. It was the House of Lords, not the Commons. There are two Commons inquiries going on at the moment which say they are open, but I'm not sure yet if they will be calling more witnesses.

2. I appeared as a representative of WTT and not of LCAG. As I've made clear on many occasions, some members of LCAG are also in Big Group and as such have access to material we have produced over the past 3 years+ and we have placed no restrictions on that being used. However, our remit is somewhat wider than LCAG's and we want (and believe we have) a solution to the whole of the tax issue and not just the loan charge.

I am intrigued by your assertion "we want (and believe we have) a solution to the whole of the tax issue and not just the loan charge". My understanding would be that if LCAG get their wish EVERYONE affected by it will get the reward. If BG solution were to be successful would it ONLY be those who joined BG who would benefit or would it be an across the board solution?