Edge EBT thread

[GoneSouth]

Any opinions on all Edge employees only past & present shelling out a sum in to a pot say anything from £500 to £1000, if we can take this to the top and pay for the services of someone who can win this for us, we could have a good amount if there was a 100 or so of us in it, Edge Consulting Employee’s V HMRC, let’s face it Edge is not going to do anything.

Hi bstar1, whilst I for one would happily contribute to a joint defence fund I think it is a bit early in the game to be discussing this. Some things to keep in mind...

• It is DonkeyRhubarb's opinion (and DR has been in HMRC's face for a long time now) that it will be quite some time before appeals hit the tribunals - there are 20,000+ individuals being approached. Given Hectors talents it will take 2 years just to put those in alphabetical order.
  
• HMRC have investigated at least one former Edge employee (see earlier in this thread) and dropped the case after 3 years.
  
• Based on this, the whole affair could just be a fishing exercise to get some people to pay the demands. Those who appeal may find their files sitting in the 'too hard basket' for a long time.
  
• If this does hit the tribunals, we don't know how it will proceed. 20,000 seperate cases or test cases per provider?
  
• Edge can't make any commitment until the above is decided.

For now I think we concentrate on getting appeals in, supporting each other through what will be a stressful time and keeping our ears open.

GS

[GoneSouth]

I thank everyone who has posted on this forum and hope we can collectively have the resolve to see this through.
if UBS won their case that can only help.
I personally feel my human rights are being breached by this retrospective action by HMRC. We did nothing wrong. it was law at the time. If i drove down a street in the one direction yesterday that became a one way street tomorrow how the hell can it be fair that i am prosecuted retrospectively???

HMRC should drop these cases and concentrate on the idiots who carried on after the legistration changed and it was illegal.

The trouble is that HMRC won their appeal against montpelier which was a different arrangement to EBT but they are having to go to european court of human rights - similar to us what they did (double taxation laws with IOM) was law at the time but somehow HMRC won the appeal. its disgusting.

Thanks to Jimmy Car etc public opinion is against us - we avoided tax but we did so in a way which was legal at the the time -the average guy who is PAYE will not support us - I am sorry to say we are 1000's strong but in a minority. All we can hope i that the law see's sense and law at the time is applied.

To be honest going with Edge is the worst mistake of my life - like many of u i am an average family guy and if I have to pay the liability it is going to cost me my house and place an emotional burden on my family that I'd like to think we can deal with but but in reality I cannot contemplate - sorry love we need to sell the house because i did something which wasn't illegal but is now seen as illegal by HMRC?

I wonder if Edge will support us? Montpeiler did a really good job but lost their appeal, they took fees from us so they should support us all the way to court if human rights.

I feel like mine have been breached.....

Hi edgy,

The MP case was quite different to what we are facing as the government passed a budget note as part of the Finance Bill (BN66) that changed the law retrospectively.

Whilst the fact that HMRC accepted our tax returns year after year without question sucks the big one, we are still being challenged on the laws as they stood at the time. The Dec 2010 GAAR changes aren't retrospective and won't apply to these 2008/09 demands. This is a good thing as given case history Hector is pushing the doo doo up an incline.

On this point though we are always under threat of retrospective changes and I would encourage all EBTers to support the NTRT campaign (see the sticky in accounting/legal).

I've quite happily joined up for 2 reasons.

Firstly DonkeyRhubarb and others have quite happily given their time and support to these EBT threads - giving them a little help back feels like the right thing to do.

Secondly we have a very good chance against the current legislation but if retro changes were introduced at some stage in the future we will be holding on to our ankles very tightly. Supporting the NTRT increases the chances that retrospective changes are seen for the abomination they are.

I hear what you are saying about the emotional stresses - I've had too many sleepless nights and depressing days. I regret going down the EBT route, but what is done is done.

I keep my chin up by remembering that the case history is strongly in our favour, and hugging my kids. The numbers on the balance sheet never matter when I'm getting those hugs

GS

[bstar1]

Not Wrong

None of us did ANYTHING wrong or ILLEGAL at THAT TIME...we have nothing to be sorry for !

if anyone is doing something wrong or ILLEGAL its HMRC.... we provided P11D's on time and with facts at the time ...they have had ALL the information ....above board and in on time !

[LandRover]

On this point though we are always under threat of retrospective changes and I would encourage all EBTers to support the NTRT campaign (see the sticky in accounting/legal).

I've quite happily joined up for 2 reasons.

Firstly DonkeyRhubarb and others have quite happily given their time and support to these EBT threads - giving them a little help back feels like the right thing to do.

Secondly we have a very good chance against the current legislation but if retro changes were introduced at some stage in the future we will be holding on to our ankles very tightly. Supporting the NTRT increases the chances that retrospective changes are seen for the abomination they are.

Here here.

What many must consider is a Labour Government 2015...

And if people like this, Richard Murphy, are advising then its hugely concerning to ANYONE who plans their financial affairs. The uncertainty that this coalition government and Labour have created will ultimately be a barrier to wealth creation and incentives to people.

Be afraid that people like Richard Murphy who advise the TUC, will be bending the ears of the Labour Party leaders...it doesn't bode well at all.

Tax Research UK » About

[TheDandy]

Dear Admin,

Can you please allow me PM access. I wish to promote a group representation option I have been working on and it will be sensible to have PM access before doing this.

Many thanks in advance!

[khasamkhan]

Ex-Edge employee

Good Evening All,

Please can you add me to this list. I received notice of assessment 4th March and as I currently work abroad and had the shocking letter waiting for me.
Found this forum thread helpful has alleviated some of the initial stress!

I've emailed Michelle Booth at Edge for the template letter to appeal and hope to get the process under way.


Thanks

<admin note - PM rights granted />

[GoneSouth]

Any opinions on all Edge employees only past & present shelling out a sum in to a pot say anything from £500 to £1000, if we can take this to the top and pay for the services of someone who can win this for us, we could have a good amount if there was a 100 or so of us in it, Edge Consulting Employee’s V HMRC, let’s face it Edge is not going to do anything.

Actually bstar1 I've been thinking about this a little more and whilst I still feel it is too early to look at starting a fighting fund, what would be useful is a ball park figure of what representation at a Tax Tribunal costs. Are we talking thousands, tens of thousands or even more?

I'm no longer a residant and my time zones make it awkward to make calls to the UK, so unless somebody knows the answer already do we have any volunteers to make some enquiries?

I'll put the question up on the main thread as well.

GS

[jn3]

Actually bstar1 I've been thinking about this a little more and whilst I still feel it is too early to look at starting a fighting fund, what would be useful is a ball park figure of what representation at a Tax Tribunal costs. Are we talking thousands, tens of thousands or even more?

I'm no longer a residant and my time zones make it awkward to make calls to the UK, so unless somebody knows the answer already do we have any volunteers to make some enquiries?

I'll put the question up on the main thread as well.

GS

In the same boat as GoneSouth with respect to now being based abroad and timezone hurdles. Interested in joining an Edge group if/once formed.

[fifilamour]

Discovery is a casue for concern

The reason I ask is that HMRC have had the information for 2008/09 for almost 4 years - they have accepted the paye and the P11D so surely, prima facie they have accepted the returns. Nothing has changed since that point so why are they using a 'discovery' piece of legislation when there is nothing further that they have discovered?
Any thoughts?

I am another Edge ex-employee.

I too would be interested in hearing more about Discovery as I think this could be a "procedural" issue that means HMRC might not have the legal right to challenge the 08/09 returns. The HMRC manual (HM Revenue & Customs: Error page could not be found...

Section 29(2)

In any case in which a self assessment has already been made for the relevant period a discovery assessment will not be made where:

the loss of tax arose out of an error or mistake concerning the basis on which the returned tax liability was calculated, and
that basis was the generally prevailing practice at the time the tax return was made.
So, HMRC are not able to raise discovery assessments simply because they have changed their practice in relation to the treatment of some particular item.

I think we are pretty clear that the loans were declared on the P11(D) and that is how "benefit in kind" tax was charged because of the lack of interest on the loan. This was entirely within the "prevailing practice" at the time the returns were made. So I think there is some merit in investigating this line of argument if the process goes beyond this initial appeals debate (which I also agree is desperate attempt by HMRC to remain within their 4 year discovery window and buy more time).

[TheDandy]

I've read somewhere that a discovery provision can be re-opened if a new inspector reviews the case. That is sufficient reason to use the discovery provision.

Happy to be told otherwise though.

This makes for interesting reading. However as pointed out numerous times on this forum proper advice by relevant qualified professionals is what's needed. Otherwise we'll all end up as barrack room lawyers

PLC - Discovery assessment blocked by inclusion of DOTAS SRN number and information provided in tax return (Upper Tribunal)